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From: Karl Fogel <kfogel@red-bean.com>
To: storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm)
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Reordering etc/NEWS
Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 14:56:38 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <87fy65k6eh.fsf@red-bean.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <m3k5viwf0g.fsf@kfs-l.imdomain.dk> (Kim F. Storm's message of "Wed\, 09 May 2007 10\:57\:35 +0200")

storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes:
> The problem with your principles is not only the (forever delayed)
> release as such, but just as much the implied "feature freeze" which
> is really blocking a lot of new development on the project.
>
> The current feature freeze has now lasted for more than 3 years,
> during which Emacs _development_ has practically been at a
> stand-still, so it is no wonder your team of _loyal_ developers is
> getting frustrated and starts to question your principles, and
> may start looking for other (more productive) projects to work on.

What Kim said.

I don't get excited about making improvements to Emacs these days,
because I know I won't be able to check them in.  So I make fewer of
them.

Again, I don't see any reason, in Emacs or any project, why there
should be no place to check in bleeding-edge development changes.
There is no technical reason why a release (or N simultaneous
releases, for that matter) should impede new development work.  The
current state of affairs means that we are using our version control
system poorly, or that we're making incorrect assumptions about the
fungibility of volunteer developers' time (e.g., the false assumption
that if someone is unable to work on new code, they'll just take that
time and devote it to release work instead, which is obviously not
true).

This isn't meant as badgering, or as a personal attack.  But I see a
number of developers wishing we could have the same non-obstructive
release process as other software projects... yet so far I've only
seen two people (RMS and, sort of, Stefan Monnier) defend our current
system, and the defenses have not really addressed the issues raised
above.  Maybe I've missed a few posts, but it seems pretty clear that
a majority of developers would like to work in a different way.

One possible response to this is: Emacs is not a democracy! :-)

Okay, fine, but even in a dictatorship our release system can still be
broken.  I think it is, and I've described why above, concretely.  The
project doesn't have to be a democracy, but it does need to function.

Why are we blocking new changes?  Why not (say) have an open trunk,
and use a release branch to isolate the release from churn, like other
projects do?

-Karl

  parent reply	other threads:[~2007-05-09 21:56 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 251+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2007-05-04 21:17 Reordering etc/NEWS Richard Stallman
2007-05-05 22:42 ` Glenn Morris
2007-05-05 22:49   ` Jason Rumney
2007-05-06 17:57   ` Richard Stallman
2007-05-06 18:18     ` Glenn Morris
2007-05-06 20:28     ` Eli Zaretskii
2007-05-07 16:50       ` Richard Stallman
2007-05-07 17:07         ` David Kastrup
2007-05-08  6:27           ` Jan Djärv
2007-05-07 17:36         ` Glenn Morris
2007-05-07 18:05           ` David Kastrup
2007-05-07 17:53         ` spect. [Was: Reordering etc/NEWS] Alan Mackenzie
2007-05-07 18:16           ` Mathias Dahl
2007-05-07 21:51         ` Reordering etc/NEWS Eli Zaretskii
2007-05-07 22:04           ` David Kastrup
2007-05-08 18:09           ` Richard Stallman
2007-05-08 21:09             ` David Kastrup
2007-05-09  8:57             ` Kim F. Storm
2007-05-09  9:23               ` David Kastrup
2007-05-09 17:54               ` JD Smith
2007-05-09 19:42                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2007-05-09 19:59                   ` JD Smith
2007-05-09 20:29                 ` Stefan Monnier
2007-05-09 20:54                   ` Nick Roberts
2007-05-10 13:05                 ` Richard Stallman
2007-05-09 21:56               ` Karl Fogel [this message]
2007-05-09 22:15                 ` David Kastrup
2007-05-09 22:25                   ` Karl Fogel
2007-05-09 22:32                     ` David Kastrup
2007-05-09 22:59                       ` Karl Fogel
2007-05-10  7:24                       ` Jason Rumney
2007-05-10  7:49                         ` David Kastrup
2007-05-10  8:04                           ` joakim
2007-05-10  9:19                             ` Jason Rumney
2007-05-10  9:32                               ` David Kastrup
2007-05-10  9:42                               ` joakim
2007-05-10  9:52                                 ` David Kastrup
2007-05-10 10:10                                   ` David Kastrup
2007-05-11 23:27                                     ` Karoly Lorentey
2007-05-12  7:53                                       ` David Kastrup
2007-05-12 12:09                                         ` Multi-tty design (Re: Reordering etc/NEWS) Károly Lo"rentey
2007-05-12 13:34                                           ` David Kastrup
2007-05-12 17:21                                             ` Karoly Lorentey
2007-05-12 18:03                                               ` David Kastrup
2007-05-13 11:08                                                 ` Károly Lőrentey
2007-05-13 12:50                                                   ` David Kastrup
2007-05-13 16:41                                                     ` David Kastrup
2007-05-13 17:04                                                       ` Andreas Schwab
2007-05-13 17:18                                                         ` David Kastrup
2007-05-13 18:11                                                           ` Andreas Schwab
2007-05-13 18:17                                                             ` David Kastrup
2007-05-13 18:22                                                           ` Dan Nicolaescu
2007-05-13 20:13                                                             ` David Kastrup
2007-05-13 20:41                                                               ` David Kastrup
2007-05-13 21:11                                                                 ` David Kastrup
2007-05-22  0:39                                                                   ` Giorgos Keramidas
2007-05-13 21:18                                                                 ` Dan Nicolaescu
2007-05-14  6:33                                                                   ` David Kastrup
2007-05-13 21:05                                                               ` Dan Nicolaescu
2007-05-14 10:11                                                               ` Karoly Lorentey
2007-05-14 10:37                                                                 ` David Kastrup
2007-05-14 11:35                                                                   ` Andreas Schwab
2007-05-14 12:24                                                                     ` David Kastrup
2007-05-14 12:45                                                                       ` Andreas Schwab
2007-05-14 12:52                                                                         ` David Kastrup
2007-05-14 13:36                                                                           ` Andreas Schwab
2007-05-14 13:41                                                                             ` David Kastrup
2007-05-14 13:42                                                                               ` Andreas Schwab
2007-05-14 16:48                                                                               ` Dan Nicolaescu
2007-05-14 17:29                                                                                 ` David Kastrup
2007-05-14 18:19                                                                                   ` Dan Nicolaescu
2007-05-14 19:07                                                                                     ` David Kastrup
2007-05-14 20:04                                                                                       ` Dan Nicolaescu
2007-05-14 20:24                                                                                         ` David Kastrup
2007-05-14 21:02                                                                                           ` Dan Nicolaescu
2007-05-14 21:20                                                                                             ` Jason Rumney
2007-05-14 21:49                                                                                               ` Dan Nicolaescu
2007-05-14 22:00                                                                                                 ` David Kastrup
2007-05-15 19:38                                                                                               ` Richard Stallman
2007-05-14 21:27                                                                                             ` David Kastrup
2007-05-14 22:13                                                                                               ` Dan Nicolaescu
2007-05-14 22:27                                                                                                 ` David Kastrup
2007-05-14 22:38                                                                                                   ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2007-05-14 22:44                                                                                                     ` David Kastrup
2007-05-14 23:03                                                                                                       ` Multi-tty design Nick Roberts
2007-05-14 23:29                                                                                                         ` David Kastrup
2007-05-15  7:44                                                                                                       ` Multi-tty design (Re: Reordering etc/NEWS) Dan Nicolaescu
2007-05-15  8:24                                                                                                         ` Jason Rumney
2007-05-16  1:51                                                                                                       ` Karoly Lorentey
2007-05-14 22:59                                                                                                     ` Jason Rumney
2007-05-14 23:22                                                                                                     ` Miles Bader
2007-05-14 22:42                                                                                                   ` joakim
2007-05-14 22:55                                                                                                     ` David Kastrup
2007-05-14 22:50                                                                                                   ` Dan Nicolaescu
2007-05-14 23:05                                                                                                     ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2007-05-15  7:41                                                                                                       ` David Kastrup
2007-05-15 16:48                                                                                                         ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2007-05-14 22:35                                                                                                 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2007-05-15 15:53                                                                                             ` Karoly Lorentey
2007-05-16  1:41                                                                                               ` Karoly Lorentey
2007-05-16 15:41                                                                                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2007-05-17 13:12                                                                                                   ` David Kastrup
2007-05-17 15:31                                                                                                     ` Károly Lo"rentey
2007-05-17 17:00                                                                                                       ` David Kastrup
2007-05-17 20:02                                                                                                         ` Ken Raeburn
2007-05-17 21:17                                                                                                           ` David Kastrup
2007-05-18  3:36                                                                                                           ` Károly Lőrentey
2007-05-17 22:51                                                                                                       ` Stefan Monnier
2007-05-18  2:58                                                                                                         ` Karoly Lorentey
2007-05-18  7:19                                                                                                           ` David Kastrup
2007-05-18 11:04                                                                                                             ` Karoly Lorentey
2007-05-18 11:48                                                                                                               ` David Kastrup
2007-05-18 11:58                                                                                                                 ` Karoly Lorentey
2007-05-18  2:52                                                                                                       ` Miles Bader
2007-05-17 22:46                                                                                                     ` Stefan Monnier
2007-05-17 14:35                                                                                                   ` Károly Lo"rentey
2007-05-17  9:59                                                                                                 ` Richard Stallman
2007-05-17 14:05                                                                                                   ` Karoly Lorentey
2007-05-17 16:46                                                                                                 ` David Kastrup
2007-05-17 23:11                                                                                                   ` Stefan Monnier
2007-05-18  7:36                                                                                                     ` David Kastrup
2007-05-18 14:24                                                                                                       ` Stefan Monnier
2007-05-18 14:49                                                                                                         ` David Kastrup
2007-05-18 16:27                                                                                                           ` Stefan Monnier
2007-05-20  9:04                                                                                                             ` David Kastrup
2007-05-21 13:15                                                                                                               ` Stefan Monnier
2007-05-21 13:35                                                                                                                 ` David Kastrup
2007-05-22  1:54                                                                                                                   ` Miles Bader
2007-05-22  6:37                                                                                                                     ` David Kastrup
2007-05-22 15:49                                                                                                                       ` Richard Stallman
2007-05-22 21:26                                                                                                                         ` David Kastrup
2007-05-23 18:55                                                                                                                           ` Richard Stallman
2007-05-23 19:24                                                                                                                             ` David Kastrup
2007-05-24 10:55                                                                                                                               ` Richard Stallman
2007-05-24 11:04                                                                                                                                 ` David Kastrup
2007-05-18 15:18                                                                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2007-05-18  2:47                                                                                                   ` Karoly Lorentey
2007-05-18  8:14                                                                                                     ` David Kastrup
2007-05-18 11:55                                                                                                       ` Karoly Lorentey
2007-05-18 12:24                                                                                                         ` David Kastrup
2007-05-18 17:40                                                                                                           ` Karoly Lorentey
2007-05-18 18:18                                                                                                             ` David Kastrup
2007-05-18 23:09                                                                                                           ` Richard Stallman
2007-05-20 18:13                                                                                                             ` Károly Lo"rentey
2007-05-14 21:05                                                                                           ` David Kastrup
2007-05-12 21:52                                             ` Richard Stallman
2007-05-12 16:48                                       ` Reordering etc/NEWS Richard Stallman
2007-05-10 10:24                                   ` joakim
2007-05-10 10:24                                 ` Jason Rumney
2007-05-11 22:58                               ` Multi-tty branch status (Re: Reordering etc/NEWS) Karoly Lorentey
2007-05-12  4:20                                 ` Glenn Morris
2007-05-12  6:48                                   ` Kalle Olavi Niemitalo
2007-05-12  7:58                                     ` David Kastrup
2007-05-12 16:48                                       ` Richard Stallman
2007-05-12 10:30                                   ` Károly Lo"rentey
2007-05-12 11:11                                     ` David Kastrup
2007-05-12 21:52                                     ` Richard Stallman
2007-05-12 16:48                                 ` Richard Stallman
2007-05-12 17:25                                   ` Karoly Lorentey
2007-05-10 10:28                         ` Reordering etc/NEWS YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu
2007-05-09 22:58                     ` Nick Roberts
2007-05-10  6:21                       ` David Kastrup
2007-05-10  1:23                     ` Stefan Monnier
2007-05-10  1:43                       ` Karl Fogel
2007-05-11  7:42                   ` Richard Stallman
2007-05-11  8:03                     ` Kenichi Handa
2007-05-11  8:34                       ` Nick Roberts
2007-05-11  8:44                       ` Merging multitty (was: Reordering etc/NEWS) David Kastrup
2007-05-11  9:20                         ` Merging multitty Jason Rumney
2007-05-11 10:00                           ` David Kastrup
2007-05-11 10:25                             ` Jason Rumney
2007-05-11 11:01                               ` David Kastrup
2007-05-11 21:05                               ` Karoly Lorentey
2007-05-12 16:48                                 ` Richard Stallman
2007-05-12 17:58                                   ` David Kastrup
2007-05-14 10:52                                     ` Kenichi Handa
2007-05-12 19:32                                   ` Dan Nicolaescu
2007-05-12 19:42                                     ` David Kastrup
2007-05-12 20:19                                       ` Dan Nicolaescu
2007-05-12 20:27                                         ` David Kastrup
2007-05-12 20:30                                     ` Samium Gromoff
2007-05-11 21:10                               ` Károly Lo"rentey
2007-05-11 12:00                             ` Kenichi Handa
2007-05-11 13:14                               ` David Kastrup
2007-05-11 13:33                                 ` Juanma Barranquero
2007-05-11 13:51                                   ` David Kastrup
2007-05-11 13:57                                     ` David Kastrup
2007-05-11 14:09                                       ` Jason Rumney
2007-05-11 14:17                                     ` Juanma Barranquero
2007-05-11 14:34                                     ` Miles Bader
2007-05-11 21:34                                   ` Karoly Lorentey
2007-05-12  7:43                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2007-05-11 13:34                               ` merging Unicode branch and availability of Windows binaries Drew Adams
2007-05-14 14:16                                 ` Drew Adams
2007-05-14 14:30                                   ` David Kastrup
2007-05-14 15:05                                     ` Drew Adams
2007-05-14 17:32                                       ` David Kastrup
2007-05-11 21:56                           ` Merging multitty Richard Stallman
2007-05-11  9:45                         ` Miles Bader
2007-05-11 10:02                           ` David Kastrup
2007-05-11 21:56                           ` Richard Stallman
2007-05-13  1:33                             ` Miles Bader
2007-05-13  3:11                               ` Nick Roberts
2007-05-13  3:27                                 ` Miles Bader
2007-05-13  4:00                                   ` Nick Roberts
2007-05-13  4:21                                     ` Miles Bader
2007-05-13 12:43                                       ` Karoly Lorentey
2007-05-14  8:08                                   ` Richard Stallman
2007-05-14 10:19                                     ` Miles Bader
2007-05-14 11:02                                     ` Karoly Lorentey
2007-05-14 14:46                                       ` Kim F. Storm
2007-05-15  9:46                                       ` Richard Stallman
2007-05-15 20:49                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]                                         ` <4649F799.3050108@lorentey.hu>
2007-05-16  1:39                                           ` Richard Stallman
2007-05-10 13:06               ` Reordering etc/NEWS Richard Stallman
2007-05-10 14:14                 ` Juanma Barranquero
2007-05-10 14:25                   ` David Kastrup
2007-05-10 14:49                     ` Juanma Barranquero
2007-05-10 17:15                       ` David Kastrup
2007-05-10 17:21                         ` Juanma Barranquero
2007-05-10 15:53                 ` Karl Fogel
2007-05-10 17:39                   ` Ken Manheimer
2007-05-10 17:44                     ` Juanma Barranquero
2007-05-11  8:50                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2007-05-11 11:23                     ` Juanma Barranquero
2007-05-11 15:46                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2007-05-11 16:09                         ` Juanma Barranquero
2007-05-11 17:43                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2007-05-11 17:49                     ` Karl Fogel
2007-05-11 18:26                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2007-05-11 18:37                         ` Karl Fogel
2007-05-12  7:22                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2007-05-12  7:59                             ` David Kastrup
2007-05-12 13:24                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2007-05-12 16:47                           ` Richard Stallman
2007-05-11 18:48                   ` Richard Stallman
2007-05-11 21:46                     ` Karl Fogel
2007-05-10 17:13                 ` David Kastrup
2007-05-11 18:48                   ` Richard Stallman
2007-05-07 16:50       ` Richard Stallman
2007-05-07 21:37         ` Eli Zaretskii
2007-05-07 21:56           ` David Kastrup
2007-05-07 10:05     ` Alan Mackenzie
2007-05-07 10:12       ` David Kastrup
2007-05-07 13:39         ` Jay Belanger
2007-05-07 13:45           ` David Kastrup
2007-05-07 13:54             ` Thomas Hühn
2007-05-07 14:03               ` David Kastrup
2007-05-07 14:57       ` Chong Yidong
2007-05-07 23:28         ` Richard Stallman
2007-05-07 23:28       ` Richard Stallman

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