From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Achim Gratz Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: On being web-friendly and why info must die Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 11:05:34 +0100 Organization: Linux Private Site Message-ID: <87fvcio8b5.fsf@Gertrud.fritz.box> References: <20141205123549.GA29331@thyrsus.com> <87ppbqb6s1.fsf@gnu.org> <87h9x2f9me.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87a92uf8ik.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <8761dif6ib.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87oar721do.fsf@ferrier.me.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1418551583 10642 80.91.229.3 (14 Dec 2014 10:06:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 10:06:23 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Dec 14 11:06:17 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Y0648-0002VP-17 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 14 Dec 2014 11:06:16 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35492 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y0647-0003cE-Ip for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 14 Dec 2014 05:06:15 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:37847) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y063n-0003UI-2e for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 14 Dec 2014 05:06:01 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y063g-0001Xa-QW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 14 Dec 2014 05:05:55 -0500 Original-Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:42208) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y063g-0001XK-KY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 14 Dec 2014 05:05:48 -0500 Original-Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Y063d-0001gn-Pj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 14 Dec 2014 11:05:45 +0100 Original-Received: from p54b7e1b4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([84.183.225.180]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 2014 11:05:45 +0100 Original-Received: from Stromeko by p54b7e1b4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 2014 11:05:45 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 44 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: p54b7e1b4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:kvcmRTvIapvKB5DbopTIw49Hzag= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.229.3 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:180063 Archived-At: [This is getting off-topic for Emacs, so maybe suggest another venue to discuss it.] Richard Stallman writes: > > At the time you were enthusiastic about my webapp. > > A few years ago I became aware of how "web apps", by running software > straight off someone else's web page, deny the user control over his > computing. To make Javascript acceptable we need to give users a way > to develop and run modified versions of it. I don't think that Javascript (or rather ECMAScript) has anything to do with that, except as a prominent example. SaaS (software as a service) is another one and there certainly are ways to deny the user control over locally installed software. > Thus, the truly ethical way to put Javascript code into service is NOT > to send it from a server at all; rather, to package it for installation > locally just like C programs. I see that as a red herring mostly. For most of the scripting in web pages it wouldn't be difficult to extract the scripts and inject local modifications. Support for additional user scripting has been available as an extension in some browsers (GreaseMonkey and others). As another example, NoScript (a Firefox extension) has so-called surrogates that replace some tracking scripts with definitions that do nothing, but keep the expected API intact. I'm not aware of a general "snarf all scripts and from then on use the local copy" functionality existing, however. It would be possible to implement it using the same facilities that user scripts or surrogates use, however. The real issues are those parts of the data and application that then still are not under the user's control and even where they are, the fact that the owner of the service and other parties gets to see what the user is doing. Regards, Achim. -- +<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+ SD adaptation for Waldorf rackAttack V1.04R1: http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfSDada