From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Colin Baxter Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: A proposal for a friendlier Emacs Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2020 18:50:31 +0100 Message-ID: <87ft79k8ew.fsf@yandex.com> References: <83sgbd1qsz.fsf@gnu.org> <20200921171958.GB3551@protected.rcdrun.com> <20200922125938.oxrh5iqoatfshcnv@Ergus> <1EA63A1B-6FDB-4A03-A294-496B6C16C3BA@gnu.support> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="11291"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.1 (gnu/linux) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:mafiNhnUaK6wMghzZcfgAn+tyLY= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 22 19:59:58 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kKma5-0002oP-UB for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 19:59:58 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:48610 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kKma4-0003hh-Ru for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 13:59:56 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:46328) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kKmRA-0002yq-4h for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 13:50:48 -0400 Original-Received: from static.214.254.202.116.clients.your-server.de ([116.202.254.214]:36656 helo=ciao.gmane.io) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kKmR7-0004gz-Vs for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 13:50:43 -0400 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kKmR4-0002Jl-6O for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 19:50:38 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ X-Face: BHjiJOg/Qmj'BQgsAKL@])L)e62P)C"Y=6T Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAGQAAAAeBAMAAAAodabAAAAAB3RJTUUH1wQdAAY04/L8hgAA AAlwSFlzAAAewQAAHsEBw2lUUwAAAARnQU1BAACxjwv8YQUAAAASUExURc7OzpwAAAAAAP////8A AGNj/2aqqTQAAAA8SURBVHjaYzA2NnEBAmdj01D8wNgYpM7F2JiBgYFREAgEGJiU8AMGBpA6QaCG UVtGbRm1ZdSWUVsGjS0Aq20lJnMawnkAAAAASUVORK5CYII= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/22 10:02:06 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -13 X-Spam_score: -1.4 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.248, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:256334 Archived-At: >>>>> Jean Louis writes: > On September 22, 2020 12:59:38 PM UTC, Ergus wrote: >> On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 08:19:58PM +0300, Jean Louis wrote: >>> * Ergus [2020-09-20 03:45]: >>>> There have been too many years of licences nobody reads and >>>> msoffice >> useless splash. So people now install the programs just pressing >> next next next accept. >>>> >>>> The problem is that 90% of the cases the information there is >>>> pretty >> useless (publicity, license, offers for an account) so most >> people assume that in our case it will be the same and usually >> ignores that. >>> >>> I am not sure how you come to seach information, as it is very >>> general. I could present Emacs to various people and see if they >>> have read the splash screen, and then after 5 or 10 attempts, I >>> could have statistics, who read what, if they found that there >>> is Tutorial or not, or what else they remembered and if they >>> have read the splash page. >>> >>> With 100 people in the test, such information would be valuable >>> statistics. >>> >> >>> Without mass of people tested randomly, it is harder to say that >> splash >>> is useless for people because it was maybe useless for one >>> msoffice user. >>> >>> I can speak for myself, as it is hard to speak for others, so I >>> know that I was reading licenses of proprietary software before >>> 1999, and I know that I was reading everything that Emacs had to >>> offer, from splash screen, Tutorials in few languages, and GNU >>> news and anything else, I did read it, and that is how I got >>> fascinated with the free software. >>> >> So you are probably more the exception than the rule. As you can >> see nobody these days reads the licenses anymore, not even the >> tutorials > I am only asking you to be specific, like from where exactly do > you draw that information they majority of nobody reads licenses? > Is there a survey result whereby at least 1000 people have been > asked if they have read the license or tutorial and in which > specific area for which specific group of people? > I know that in Germany we, and I mean my free friends, have been > reading license as we were concerned what we can do with > proprietary software, if we can make copy for ourselves and if we > were allowed to share our install on multiple computers, and later > me and my close friends discovered GNU derived distributions and > became happy that license now allowed us. I can speak for few > close people that I know. And in organization that I worked, the > licensing was very much controlled, as we did not want to shift > anyone's rights. > As teenager I was clicking through licenses and used warez and > whatever I could without paying any license and reading such. > I do not know you, I am 47, what is your age? > I don't know if by saying that nobody reads licenses you refer to > nobody teenager interested to play games, or you refer to > Tanzanian student who will not care of any license because there > will be no enforcement, or you refer to average German trader who > needs software professionally. > I know how to make a survey and how to evaluate a survey results, > and if none was made, even if it was made, days shall be based on > such survey. >> I just say that nobody knows what is written in the license or >> the splash screen. Consider also that most of the people in the >> world are nor English speakers > either. > I know you write that but I don't see fusion of such a > statement. Did you count number of people not reading licenses and > how that was measured, what group of people and in which > geographic locations? > Without proper survey result, I don't share your opinion, just > contrary, I know that today there is more free software then ever, > and speaking from German and of good knowledge of Western European > part of the world, I know that those people introduced to free > software were especially interested in licensing terms. > As a speaker on seminars about GNU/Linux systems, attendees in > Stuttgart Mediothek, were interested in licensing terms and felt > liberated, and I can say they probably read licenses, but I have > not controlled them, as a speaker, from their questions I know > they were interested. As I understand things, the "E" in emacs is for extensible. If something is extensible then I suggest there exists an initial zero-extension state. I further suggest that that state is characterised by the absent of a .emacs file (or equivalent). Therefore emacs needs no .emacs to work. I very much agree with what Jean Louis has written about this. I know very little about emacs having only used it for 20+ years. (That is a serious observation, not a joke.) For the first five years I knew nothing about a .emacs file and used emacs happily to edit tex and fortran files. I did read the licenses and became intrigued by something called free software. My point is emacs is a journey for many of us and I think my journey would have begun on the wrong foot if I had been told what to do by a "wizard". If you really want to sell emacs to new users, tell them about this journey and tell them they will have adventures - but let them find the adventures themselves. Best wishes, Colin Baxter URL: http://www.Colin-Baxter.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- GnuPG fingerprint: 68A8 799C 0230 16E7 BF68 2A27 BBFA 2492 91F5 41C8 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Since mathematicians have invaded the theory of relativity, I do not understand it myself. A. Einstein