From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ihor Radchenko Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Convert README.org to plain text README while installing package Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2022 23:15:16 +0800 Message-ID: <87fskfqj97.fsf@localhost> References: <87leuca7v7.fsf@disroot.org> <87czfopmsd.fsf@gnu.org> <87h74ztshe.fsf@gmx.de> <871qw31ois.fsf@yahoo.com> <8735gj4ceo.fsf@gnu.org> <87ee038ipt.fsf@gmx.de> <87o7z61v59.fsf@gmail.com> <87bkv527p5.fsf@gmail.com> <835yld93w7.fsf@gnu.org> <877d5t0yrn.fsf@gmail.com> <83o7z47m7y.fsf@gnu.org> <8735gfs3is.fsf@localhost> <838rq75jhg.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="33543"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: theophilusx@gmail.com, acm@muc.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Jun 08 17:18:59 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nyxSU-0008QN-Ik for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 17:18:58 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40238 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nyxSS-0001eo-Fd for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 11:18:56 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40626) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nyxOc-0005kS-Cx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 11:14:58 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pf1-x42a.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::42a]:45971) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nyxOQ-0000z8-Tl; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 11:14:51 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pf1-x42a.google.com with SMTP id b135so18582760pfb.12; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 08:14:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :mime-version; bh=Wa4GhGKx2g2iHpNFswdlM47AKIHKNaEAn/ok7HA0pCo=; b=Q+jTqnJKopqqWpfwmVBXFLiZ4RLq4LBvct+VywyabloArNw+8tQhwwhkGkJ7QrKBum XrAWuSaT3VfSQRPkoDZz2XR+nGy5o6EthlELsOAIJfj1Ly63ZGvP+NQzSBK5R33kGeaf L1qiAILh6tjGLY0zMhbDFrsSJDIshf1bOOAJa7CjRfZEJcUY5wwjHkg837/BslThKgDl W2/QL1/mPqS3IS4KNa7OvpJWDA0PaTIyrv2Db0YksGMLdcxI5owBmOXJsUK7Oisbws2R Xdb4GW9DDspCBMTUfI+qGucMNJ8ex2F9PlbuGl9iOCxlEfuLsuoz1Db2A9aggE/Gparh xegw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:mime-version; bh=Wa4GhGKx2g2iHpNFswdlM47AKIHKNaEAn/ok7HA0pCo=; b=u+QjGQE6hMPNbbvV/SgZ1yHww1XYlVLW7l+zbVgh0NEpxGMuQEZafsBfFo3nghYIsq AUs44DCl1t2YsvoAH9C1tMKI9HwNNz6iB3LdczK0OJFLtkv1vtStZX43+K4VEUBbodcB V87GPFSZvvnetl00fPEMP09QJKRaK10MYzClwAievkPpXXhihKEOqELtae59bIYDdd2E 6MK051mcXdu4uIrg6YxL10km++z5IUJRnEdU8wfSlb5tRWdNNCFdUiYrQ0GuSk2Bx2+D FsobPDYvUjcgSARfqlr145rY+RV+JZfkcBMVUP+IQ3/hiZRFgcsoh4YknCH1tQwmNqvv gKzA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5331GqGPTKqrCe3xp3suKkexa5ufCDGziWzELxBmaeZcDiWcpE5m KZmXClIX5HtPXK+fq9XCMJ3lhEcGxF2zwA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzI59UXBdcVbFg3VEdrOi8kvWHRKEBjkiojvVYDTS8uEj2zvB6EZKXmCkg8NOiOG+53O7NpMw== X-Received: by 2002:a63:86c7:0:b0:3fd:9822:d1ae with SMTP id x190-20020a6386c7000000b003fd9822d1aemr16175103pgd.609.1654701278556; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 08:14:38 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from localhost ([64.32.23.62]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s68-20020a625e47000000b0051b9ecb53e6sm14003127pfb.105.2022.06.08.08.14.36 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 08 Jun 2022 08:14:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <838rq75jhg.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::42a; envelope-from=yantar92@gmail.com; helo=mail-pf1-x42a.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:290943 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Ihor Radchenko >> Cc: Tim Cross , acm@muc.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org >> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2022 21:12:11 +0800 >> >> Eli Zaretskii writes: >> >> >> - 236 org related key bindings - far less than 785 Of these, a number are >> >> - actually remapping of existing bindings, so not new ones. This leaves 208. >> > >> > ??? How is remapping "not new"? It takes some very common Emacs >> > commands and redirects them to different commands. E.g., 'open-line' >> > now does something quite different. This means the user should either >> > go learn what the Org commands do, or be prepared to be surprised. >> >> There are 3 main purposes of remappings in Org: > > I'm sure there are good reasons for that. My point is that such > remappings effectively force the user to re-learn the commands he/she > is very familiar with. So it's a non-trivial burden. Not really. The remappings usually intend to re-implement the usual expected Emacs behavior inside Org. It's just that it is not always possible using the built-in functions. Hence, we implement a layer on top. There should not be anything to learn with regard to remapped commands given that Org defaults are not changed. The difference is that things like, say, paragraph-separate, are not even noticed by users of various major modes. Org had to remap the commands, which is more immediately visible. >> >> I said that for a read only buffer, many of the org key bindings are not >> >> relevant as they relate to features which are not pertinent to a read only org >> >> buffer. Any bindings relating to babel, todo management, time management, >> >> agendas etc have no relevance when reading a readme.org file. >> > >> > Then why does Org define them in that case? >> >> I am not very sure what is the problem with the number of bindings. It >> is not different from Emacs itself. > > The difference is that we had years or decades to get used to the > Emacs defaults, and once Org is turned on in a buffer, one has a lot > of new stuff to get used to. Unless Org is used constantly, you will > forget most of those changes till the next time, so this re-learning > experience will be repeated every time. Isn't it the same for any other major mode? > It isn't a catastrophe, of course, but we should recognize this as an > issue, especially if many of the bindings aren't needed. I am not sure what you mean by aren't needed. They are needed if you use their functionality. They are not needed if you don't. There is no doubt that you do not need most of the bindings just to navigate Org files or do basic editing. You do not need to learn those other bindings either. Best, Ihor