From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tim Cross Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Org mode and Emacs Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2022 14:43:38 +1000 Message-ID: <87fskawjvw.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87h74ztshe.fsf@gmx.de> <871qw31ois.fsf@yahoo.com> <8735gj4ceo.fsf@gnu.org> <87ee038ipt.fsf@gmx.de> <87o7z61v59.fsf@gmail.com> <87bkv527p5.fsf@gmail.com> <835yld93w7.fsf@gnu.org> <877d5t0yrn.fsf@gmail.com> <87r140yuof.fsf@gmail.com> <875yl9e7zm.fsf@gmail.com> <87y1y2irhn.fsf@yahoo.com> <87wndmaaow.fsf@localhost> <87tu8qa8cz.fsf@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="1896"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.7.27; emacs 28.1.50 Cc: Ihor Radchenko , Po Lu , Richard Stallman , monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, acm@muc.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: David Masterson Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Jun 12 07:07:25 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1o0For-0000N1-9b for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2022 07:07:25 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:43056 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o0Fop-0003zW-QY for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2022 01:07:23 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:56230) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o0Fo6-0003J8-4t for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2022 01:06:38 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pj1-x102c.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::102c]:38639) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o0Fo2-0000Pr-6P; Sun, 12 Jun 2022 01:06:37 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pj1-x102c.google.com with SMTP id v11-20020a17090a4ecb00b001e2c5b837ccso5872634pjl.3; Sat, 11 Jun 2022 22:06:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:date:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version; bh=vnBPrDQHTxnXMxqSSiav3jDZhLBiUI9V1p4VxA+a110=; b=Q3DeppfqP9qEFSiPtwKXcKoLbBpCMV4OLb7WBgJm1miq2TZc4EhJPGOh53y9mmUkLA exYENViE1BhG2TlpoEJ3xbF9Fm1b3egV8stXwaXr8AbEr+MMWd+f3n9fTozvd9OyxPc3 hrkJt2kF5Kqh/+mjQYyavLQjoR05ElHVenO05tHzSDv5y7ES43h9UQuXwVFtGowDuxRd bkrNENtOYruvC31WYJkhgw3mC8ZN+OQ+7uvXkXGQ81Y+MDputGIH2bKzfBuTSLMMhW/e CdNfMedaSbzw6fDBpQcSpaljR2sGMacIarua/HnGSI+nyGlH1Ldk6Yj9ypaoqkRT75yb AJwQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:date :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version; bh=vnBPrDQHTxnXMxqSSiav3jDZhLBiUI9V1p4VxA+a110=; b=VEkQsV4dysOLWo+pGHWUF+RUU2OoVJNYX/sktAMRmDPrBRTeMO1qBGq9nXGC+M6R87 MYVJG2HKZ8dxQvu+nPE6cwU0b8KVil1UZL+GKQk+GqyzEBYhnPK91MC+lmfvJOWaUoYz cMVVEOY1tBHUM3iXLtjxupr8tus2ATe4juKY1ehpEi4RazmPtXog/BM1qNbZG/9JsrC1 UtiU2tj/7mMaeb2Wcj9TeSl0BQN5wGd6TgTPwh4dIGNtNE08pCFxOBWT9jZjsyddioG5 A8Zx6yCX2NBi7EvR5Cc4g/UuCD0t43cCxOPK4h1Z2XacsPGzo5sIA8r3PqDm7GPcmO6h +E/A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531T+klNeffKiRVSCr4Rfjr7AaQhI1W5DQLTyQm30G5MUKfH5QMt AdFgCI6Aap3cE7Chuql68oSUUQbEsnTFGg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx83cu3DxHDQsNcalJtQeBI/o3V4S3c1Yuzpub+US1ZP8pXMVIq4VGMqfRBP22by1Z203rCVg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:ec91:b0:167:6f74:ba73 with SMTP id x17-20020a170902ec9100b001676f74ba73mr37316758plg.141.1655010377357; Sat, 11 Jun 2022 22:06:17 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from dingbat (2001-44b8-31f2-bb00-63fa-329c-dbc6-d47e.static.ipv6.internode.on.net. [2001:44b8:31f2:bb00:63fa:329c:dbc6:d47e]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v1-20020a62c301000000b0051bc581b62asm2454233pfg.121.2022.06.11.22.06.14 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 11 Jun 2022 22:06:17 -0700 (PDT) In-reply-to: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::102c; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-pj1-x102c.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:291064 Archived-At: David Masterson writes: > Ihor Radchenko writes: > >> David Masterson writes: >> >>>> This last point also raises a question. Can Elisp interpreter and >>>> libraries be factored out of Emacs to create a way to execute Elisp >>>> programs without installing all the interactive parts of Emacs? >>> >>> Isn't Tim Cross(?) working on something like that -- ie. a parser for >>> the Org language. Once we have a solid parser, we can build a standard >>> (set of?) backend(s) for much of Orgmode. >> >> Org already have a parser. Written in Elisp. Export is built on top of >> the parser. > > But Elisp is not portable to a non-Emacs system (say, iPhone). In the > long run, it would be better to define a "parseable" language as the > standard basis for Org. From that, people can develop (parts of) Org on > other platforms (Vim, Beorg, Orgzly) and test/prove that they are > compatible with version X of the language. I think Organice was doing > this, but I haven't looked at it deeply. > This is all part of the aims and process. However, the first step is to develop a robust elisp based parser. This helps to ensure the org syntax is consistent and helps identifies ambiguities which need to be fixed as well as provides a reference implementation which developers can use to develop parsers in other languages. > Oh, but I see your point about "export". By backend, I was assuming a > true parser would generate a standard "internal" language which could be > fed into simpler backends to actually do the work. The front-end parser > and back-ends could be translated/rebuilt as needed on new platorms > (iOS, Android, MS-Windows, etc.). More is needed than this, but that's > the idea. Personally, I think it is unlikely we will ever see an org mode for other platforms which is equivalent to Emacs. However, the work which is being done to create a clean parser in elisp and use that as the basis for an API to manipulate org data, generate font-locking and formatting and provide a clean API for exporters to use will make it much easier for people to develop external org support at varying levels. Those doing the main work, like Ihor, are very aware of the desire to facilitate external implementations. It is one reason that a fairly conservative attitude to change is adopted by the project and often, one consideration is what imapct a change would have on external org compatible projects. Sometimes, this is challenging as on one level, we want ot advance and improve org mode, but on the other, we want it to be as stable as possible to reduce adverse impact on external projects. So while the main target is and will always be Emacs, an eye is kept on efforts of other external projects and an effort is made to support them when possible and within Emacs and FSF principals/guidelines. So far, the key contributors have been doing a very good job.