From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Help sought understanding shorthands wrt modules/packages Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 18:45:08 +0000 Message-ID: <87fseom2q3.fsf@gmail.com> References: <25a8a3a6-81c8-3fbc-434d-fb1b24ae1d62@gmail.com> <83cza48lxe.fsf@gnu.org> <87cza0ihb7.fsf@gmx.de> <87o7td7qfu.fsf@gmail.com> <87tu345vod.fsf@gmail.com> <73c09027-b62f-4a0c-cad9-1dafee664f27@yandex.ru> <7838e54a-a427-d01c-6e57-a0ce70ef9352@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="35545"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: Richard Stallman , emacs-devel To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Nov 12 19:44:43 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1otvUg-000912-7O for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 19:44:42 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1otvU0-0006E4-4y; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 13:44:00 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1otvTy-0006Du-K4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 13:43:58 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-wr1-x42e.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::42e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1otvTx-0006CQ-0O; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 13:43:58 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-wr1-x42e.google.com with SMTP id h9so10621989wrt.0; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 10:43:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date :references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=yIWTgp3kjDZrwVrwqPmEWxz6snUMxErRn0kPI4DN8q0=; b=caxmcFJZ+wFlbqwm6Zb7x17CTJFm7W4FVE0DHHNBoOdjM20Of8QjayM5DzYf9Lfske 6PK4KJhiBupFuCkpajixhmV+rZlJMX5F8jxAHuHwBk0RBGQ+x+wf1OXONzi6mvPOV12N iXDgktuIuIN5rYYk6h7uQyapEe87lC/e09M7+RWzyjplNhAR7YRKsZL4Z4eXDYNi4SbV WUnDx0mQw7v35NF4MOTCEKIP0thf9GSXLGXI/dg07QDQjlVg8k0poYCG/zLpNmuwZ/io IM2XW5PTm2PcKVfPzCK1UaV36TMHPBmjS9bjVpQadGVsRVqzXHpztMmU9dv7zmOt+4NZ f9qA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date :references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:x-gm-message-state:from :to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=yIWTgp3kjDZrwVrwqPmEWxz6snUMxErRn0kPI4DN8q0=; b=NVikcw7jRetf6jxCr/mCp0zi4pcOHGvuU3E5rVvT9hU8NaqdbRL8RuymdARE/xoeXu 3CI4iupNiEc2ysOi41D2RvcqJM867Wt3PaRzD2lsMvvm+X++zxvKqHNE85aiE25HA3dm IY7ZolV1g1lf/XMkihOcuunEqVvHdNjKYxqj4oxZrfxVlzdeaR4xuscjWErjW+9EHxcG Zei5SebTXURa8rGBgnJtjAy/BTmIb7BfOxR6B+JdXosDJ3909H37NUEp8ky8dqKvWarl SnmK+MhlYoCNPNvniFnjCl8bq9PADCs2ZlaZDRfGjrfA2a+1143LB+fiD5NtP1O/W1tl 5clw== X-Gm-Message-State: ANoB5plGhkrFtw16baO1ZtRuQhwpb+gz7+WpsoNgYz2RQUZJiZtKueKa b35QeqUPk0MaGeTMkXCJOQMaT+cV3tg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA0mqf6P2LDuDZoXruDPA3UEIVo6xspoK31aM4HVMAJs1X94c8q0Fw+NDL/Qju4OQvViRzsQneuL3g== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:5741:0:b0:236:960f:161d with SMTP id q1-20020a5d5741000000b00236960f161dmr4161876wrw.376.1668278634603; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 10:43:54 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from krug (87-196-81-1.net.novis.pt. [87.196.81.1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f7-20020adfe907000000b0023677081f3asm4897363wrm.42.2022.11.12.10.43.53 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 12 Nov 2022 10:43:53 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <7838e54a-a427-d01c-6e57-a0ce70ef9352@yandex.ru> (Dmitry Gutov's message of "Sat, 12 Nov 2022 19:32:48 +0200") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::42e; envelope-from=joaotavora@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x42e.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -10 X-Spam_score: -1.1 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:299670 Archived-At: Dmitry Gutov writes: > On 12.11.2022 17:20, Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora wrote: >> On Sat, Nov 12, 2022, 14:36 Dmitry Gutov > > wrote: >> On 12.11.2022 12:11, Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora wrote: >> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Saint Ignucius then also asked the maintainers to st= op maintaining >> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 their s.el.=C2=A0 Let's presume they did listen. >> Did they? >> Did the whole fairy-tale schtick fly over your head? None of this >> has happened yet: I'm just presenting a plan. If people play along >> is not up to me. > > It would seem useful to do some dev-rel work in advance. Or maybe now? Yes, maybe. But maybe we should first agree on the plan. We're not there yet: Richard has a completely different idea, that I don't think is technically sound. I've tried to explain my original plan again. It would seem you have read it: do you understand it? Do you see anything technically wrong with it? If you don't then maybe you could help convince others that it's a viable plan > Otherwise, we've just acquired some extra complexity in the reader, > xref and elisp completion code, while the anticipated benefits are > very slow to materialize. I'm not sure the complexity is that much (it was a long time ago, but I believe it was reasonably low). But you're right, the benefits of shorthands so far are just programmer convenience for libraries outside of Emacs. I've enjoyed using them, and I would guess a small number of programmers are also taking advantage of them them in some side projects, judging from a quick GitHub code search. > Half a year has passed now since Emacs 28.1's release, and even longer > than that since the "shorthands" have been installed on master, and I > don't see a single mention of them on s.el's issue tracker. > > Ditto for dash.el and f.el. For the record, I think you're completely right. But hey, this is Emacs, it moves slowly. Again, if you understand the plan I put forth and you think it's viable, then speak up and let's get things moving. Jo=C3=A3o