From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Emanuel Berg Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What's missing in ELisp that makes people want to use cl-lib? Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2023 12:18:47 +0100 Message-ID: <87fs1oieso.fsf@dataswamp.org> References: <46ab3c7d-d820-4bb4-8ec4-97c614d7c8a0@alphapapa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="27981"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:Ojzhctmy7N+AKl5sQbuMc3Nayyc= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Nov 02 12:30:26 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qyVu6-00073l-RO for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 02 Nov 2023 12:30:26 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qyVt8-0005So-9N; Thu, 02 Nov 2023 07:29:26 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qyVj4-0001by-Jp for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Nov 2023 07:19:02 -0400 Original-Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qyVj0-0000ND-AP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Nov 2023 07:19:02 -0400 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qyVix-000259-7w for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Nov 2023 12:18:55 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Mail-Copies-To: never Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 02 Nov 2023 07:29:24 -0400 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312116 Archived-At: João Távora wrote: >>> Anyway, the point is that to hack on long-lived files such >>> as lisp/minibuffer.el, one can't really "ignore" the new >>> dictionary of seq.el anymore. >> >> That's exactly the problem. > > Then why this laser-focus on cl-lib.el? Why not criticize > the use of seq.el and map.el and pcase.el all of which "add > many functions, which have many details"? Why are these > libraries seemingly exempt from this discussion? Indeed, this has been mentioned several times now and the answer we get is "There is no special treatment of cl-lib.el". Hard to believe. > The above question is mostly rhetorical, I am _not_ > criticizing these libraries or advocating restricting seq.el > and map.el and pcase.el. > > Reading certain parts of Emacs core has become impossible > without getting well acquainted with Stefan's Monnier > pcase.el which I had to do some 7-8 years ago. It was an > entirely alien creature when I first saw it. It is directly > inspired by pattern matching of the ML language. > > When reading a pcase, I occasionally think to myself that > it's overkill complexity, that "in the old days" it was all > much simpler. In many other cases I've learned to > appreciate, and now it's part of my Lisp toolbox too. > > I think it's important to allow the programmers and > maintainers working on specific sections of the code > a certain freedom to recommend or select certain > abstractions. But Emacs's Lisp code base is now very > extensive and any kind of core-wide ban or rewrites of > certain patterns is counter-productive and highly > contentious. Let's be very careful when going down > that path. Very much so. > Has Emacs Lisp become ML through the use of pcase.el? > Of course not. It's become easier to write many things in > Emacs Lisp, if anything. It has become the SME(cl), the Standard Meta Emacs Common Lisp. Deal with it. -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal