From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [External] : Re: What's missing in ELisp that makes people want to use cl-lib? Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2023 14:56:06 +0800 Message-ID: <87fs1bo3y1.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <871qd8sfdx.fsf@posteo.net> <838r7g8pys.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkcbrgnr.fsf@posteo.net> <25924.21015.19614.951576@orion.rgrjr.com> <87bkc4jpja.fsf@dataswamp.org> <12da6bcb-1818-7fbe-12af-8d4607724332@gutov.dev> <87il6bt4z0.fsf@yahoo.com> <87bkc0ifzf.fsf@dataswamp.org> <87o7fzollf.fsf@yahoo.com> <875y27g27w.fsf@dataswamp.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="37803"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Nov 12 07:57:06 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r24P4-0009fS-Ny for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 12 Nov 2023 07:57:06 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r24OM-000697-Hl; Sun, 12 Nov 2023 01:56:23 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r24OL-00068y-7M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Nov 2023 01:56:21 -0500 Original-Received: from sonic315-22.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.190.148]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r24OJ-0006I0-8Z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Nov 2023 01:56:20 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1699772176; bh=kDNdadfPS9VsVXZTcQBkZzRL88BHW77uNjVT0eA1uJo=; h=From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=AytbZaFc7omHptZjw23B1pU+h1EoWaZsMRoa4V659XI9yYN+qc9H0rV4p80dgvVWd2pHYHOhl8O5/1iiXq9P7YGr9LG1lQJQFE1ARonwzKyhfxAeV1UHNXd1nHB3WsgomL/6mDwhYFmUD9fpms3OvmWR3a7y8ERZqFz+TOXdGZ8D6uuHdDlKLiWq0V7gWblnEbXfTtsGVmaJb6zepciraXgikWudw4dP2yOFeUbBGqlawcC1YEqbP96Gqd0wrKbFR2khmyJ/kAiAETfbfjAz/N7L8CZqg3MOYzlbkFNs6CAutD71+NRh6uFjZsZPXmtAmniMo7IYyc1zSejjY8FGZQ== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1699772176; bh=hxAPqSQiAHECGfAdAMuCj+GJH24QZ5O6UCjRGiE3uuq=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=AESt1Wo0eoPp1W+hjEzXBY+0pqYugrycWkPVsly2ulQGQ4KcmpHH3oSmSQtfVw2V1hs5ZrXycHZWS+5Xj9RqrZ8btzhFa+Mu+vqcCdk50CM12JRF4jE6oY5DZjL4ZJozyyZWOpPGnA9dFmeGZBzlqHy+6jk8YCNYN5XofGp+0pnEf9JipJnwYQHdSCv6/HwG5p+R+7tOkL0pFpX1vJJM02GUqsWApgm0lAKW0cOTgd+qlMJthfV7W15z6xOM0hmd0w53PV944EpUBv+0UZdHeD3KZBdPYU7Fx0UXp+aM4oUjlZDX90lwaDJiHEDcf6KEFE3geggcKjhTMRzYw7+Fpw== X-YMail-OSG: 3L36.3MVM1lAq.IFwL10.kiGP6khpDfIdBu9qUSdqVfVru0HGZWANVwvL8Za4jO wuwTaU9beDH6Z65zcoBZWsGakEv2S7Fi.sI1vD6QnTy2hGjokB7Hl1CVzQ_DUuG2VcA51dn4PFsJ jKZxOMDshccwcQ2LdMp1KtpF_iR8Qf.Iq9ZlMebDA.s.U1HdERBkzHt5J0C_gh90rON5qeW2PQRM Pg455bSaGDgp8khdITKDXHJ7W0KFgGBEfjfzUo12K1RO9YDen5SOu4ySj2FYP8Wm2LUdRfm1flOQ OEYMoJay_0Wk9UOHMa0PWjvB62OD2azByBvowjR_.wOBzjlcc.kjOwnofV1oFusqwoZdVPJi5PlE dOpq8CcuxhPTVJBAdDUr6hkS5zZY4vMmgpFRzc2.3tQuwccl8OsIyaqRRK01Jt6YpU15z_rvReUn mxL.1Bs2OnZlltepCkntSjrNcrYoeKphrY9C.fmHYnV7RM.LcT_yBIF0EYxpFucZONCiP4GCU1r3 nvtXKseDCFJIH.KYdf6JgbPs64wtxTwmajWP0b9.zMmKCvBCC5ECAkwHWhnNBYQj27fG3oISbEyZ x5RyzjgY8b5gtgv0lGW0CGNlNc3oHlCG8aLdQMFfDPOsp6HTCejl4ttnjQdydlotrp.QMT.L2VZs cIHq71J7zJZAh.3boDjPbpvDbX7__e46BhXov2z7RkmkLRnyrDE1mweLLEDVTvC3nhi8RV7arhcH lWYAv98J3nS4QNPGyYz.KdXxIY_uumcLt7qlVK4D8xK0SVxPKOTC.KLRQJ7m5AtB1eJKLaj23AQw nwNLkjSFGP_zNDqkKVPw4MO02zflRCCWN1Xh4V_jrM X-Sonic-MF: X-Sonic-ID: 2da6aa3d-d37f-49a8-948c-6a0f2d9737f5 Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic315.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 12 Nov 2023 06:56:16 +0000 Original-Received: by hermes--production-sg3-8696d769c6-gk9xn (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID ad35e3ab4bb1221219fa0f5c35a7dde0; Sun, 12 Nov 2023 06:56:11 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <875y27g27w.fsf@dataswamp.org> (Emanuel Berg's message of "Sun, 12 Nov 2023 03:00:35 +0100") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21896 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.190.148; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic315-22.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312638 Archived-At: Emanuel Berg writes: > It is loaded when it is used. When it is loaded is > a technicality at that point, unless the preloaded or not > distinction has some hidden meaning I'm unaware of. Preloaded Lisp is present within the dumped emacs binary, other Lisp is not. I don't think any distinction could be more marked than that. > "cl-loop" appears 1004 times in the Emacs source so a lot of > people put it do good use. I also think `cl-loop' is > very useful. Those 1004 instances are precisely what we are trying to prevent from growing, and then reduce. They are incomprehensible to Emacs Lisp programmers and therefore antithetical to how Emacs Lisp should be written.