From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Instead of pcase Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2023 13:36:46 +0800 Message-ID: <87fs15kkk1.fsf@yahoo.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="12641"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Jim Porter Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Nov 17 06:37:53 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r3rY8-00038P-VV for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 17 Nov 2023 06:37:53 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r3rXS-00022C-5j; Fri, 17 Nov 2023 00:37:10 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r3rXQ-000220-9P for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Nov 2023 00:37:08 -0500 Original-Received: from sonic315-22.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.190.148]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r3rXN-0007Rx-Hz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Nov 2023 00:37:08 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1700199422; bh=J6i5OOBZZtoVv+T5JzkEWm3q50d5PNWB4YJUhE4ADgc=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=dkEQhb0qexFNEaGNxJLyP7pg1Rzb1uAb5DGsaEIM1ZVRR4/UZ63D7kFxhXp2Uod0ryVi76KxuoNqcrGB6V4kpnBg7W8Wj9xEMkO3JJReA/fwJ23sY81lFRO8NlWyUCMwf99BASDpNq751UC0y5D0nzPHokOZEIGpKWi3TKiBC3v7uzfw4OvWanNUK4Hu7YYou+9S5hhuIjGS7RDJDcRHMvgPFSYGv4VXWzjc8B25zuYf1Oex153pxpHsu12T2I9QVFWOHVvCEmMYs5oed9JJKQM0roEznVIw8Tj8plpdBcD0iMKz1Xo+sVWtlWTjoygilHmwskvGARs8jnHkdVh8vQ== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1700199422; bh=BOu+ttX8rzL1XwvjXHMD4/seIAzBrYtwRdFU+N227jO=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=YtU7R5fVZAW+uGDaENXplyoID9Sncy3LpBtnrolfUnUCl6BhTPWubG4xxk94kHNHB19h0xODhCeNnYc1+nHDUDa2TXHj044XO8gaOV7RzZu3LoQxETWj+0sQMr+nlu+HDJhMgfJbqRySoLmt4axt5qsriixl5Nt2L5XOtBON9Tj5Uo795sNHm1NtDrC1WAfKq3Onp+lcULxnfbH3NaswKV6TRcfOpaZpuoDtr3YYHuU5g7i0halVF78mD8EANKg+fCkpdWKSoVW+gK6B0hfW3/yir+9ev35RvDFVv0BycEPzlveDdNQAAae6zWTfgmrMK/uZ/MigmUD1pqs+ukSD8A== X-YMail-OSG: aFxdndoVM1mT_1QZ2zdr6VSu0k_gB8NDyyK8N8E910tB645fTCbuZw4ny_pDeMF CwaVH2PPjFgFtOADECSGbaLgVt0ByetkliD8QkXZ3xTXedQWKJ3NK6X8vMHCIAWocwdL5G7ky9zz Zrs8HDxPwv12T9FxdX90ZyLdQoFyIrtNjOYNbq9QDdDdW2fSn5VvcwwNNeuAoUfvLyEEnhwm97Sk 3dzNveuQWScggN3o3HErgYm7pDAMw2lYYIYyHaZrXquGTjGPL0lIljGllxEkcgxYZAgszgD6Etfr mliqSu49QFzZsYDeX_F1wXcNScW4SjPk5tMLoA1AG.HOOCMhVX9viYODeZcctVObfEv89MYC2Xtm 5cn87SKc0nOBprv6W7m5cJujrUp8ldyS2RLCjDK2zZi.89uud7F2j_ZCts.Cby4TPVv83SyWHAX7 6cCfppR_F_OmdMo8Y1hpPcKY8j79SEtk6E9muuHgsn.kNzurFG0Is5jTZGFlT6yFdx7q3KGDvFDI AJ3jtAQ6F48bjarLNFdUL_XPbjMJQowY9RmTTBE3BujOEfQQT5Zho4N3mXjRKnfXG9rk7Ms7rdaS gCjhaQ7elnvhjEmh6LWvCaArX0k8ACDRgYv5RtTaIu1bu0gjZGxoZHdBpzH2vd5Uvp.0P.UrJIHS lLKfS.WdQ9zC6HzEZCKJ8PQEf3d8l9iKAev_Y2l9Pr_P8dJyuqLbEFHTIBd__PN1fCZI3R.epFE4 y26GdMZLEWPSKEPLwlX.TJNMtTDQyhCMJbCiHfpNKSdVEtxP3ak5EC5htTrAKw7jeBSYNCwULvK2 ius_fCDryu3phrqqaxw_UwgsVZ5J72MXmrTqvFcW58 X-Sonic-MF: X-Sonic-ID: aeab10a0-3bdd-4b53-a516-6d93788d73da Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic315.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 17 Nov 2023 05:37:02 +0000 Original-Received: by hermes--production-sg3-8696d769c6-gk9xn (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID aa7947975fe8d1a08c4cf292d813cefd; Fri, 17 Nov 2023 05:36:56 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: (Jim Porter's message of "Thu, 16 Nov 2023 10:22:12 -0800") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21896 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.190.148; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic315-22.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312845 Archived-At: Jim Porter writes: > At a higher level, I'd say it's worth considering the audience we want > to focus on. For veteran (Emacs) Lisp programmers, new additions like > 'pcase' can increase the difficulty of reading new Elisp code: your > prior mastery of the language isn't any good when you hit that > "(pcase". However, many programmers today don't know Lisp, of any > variety. For people like that, learning to contribute to Emacs means > learning from the very beginning. That's as may be, but pcase remains a hurdle all Emacs Lisp programmers will have to surmount, if they are to understand a program which employs it. Much as the linguistically inclined enjoy acquiring an abstruse language, so certain programmers may relish the occasion to acquire a new and intricate construct. Nevertheless, and your singular experience notwithstanding, other programmers are loath to devote their time to such monotonous pursuits--whether they are learning the language from a blank slate or with a solid basis in the form of proficiency in other dialects of Lisp--and they are a sizable portion of our userbase as well. All these programmers share a common ground that excludes pcase and presently destructuring variable binding, so I don't think there are many who would gainsay that the introduction of a simpler construct to the same end is a win-win. Now for some quibbling: there is no "audience" for whom our design choices are made; rather a corpus of users who are enjoined to read and write the same language. It is to everyone's advantage if the users with such zeal as to memorize and enjoy these ivory tower delights exert themselves slightly, in order for others to read their code also.