From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Sander Boer" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: What would a 21st centruy text render engine do -was: Re: HTML5 the new lisp ? Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2011 12:40:37 +0200 Organization: From the desk of Sander Boer Message-ID: <87ei14w0yi.fsf_-_@COLTRANE.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> References: <87oc0a8afj.fsf@COLTRANE.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1312281669 2947 80.91.229.12 (2 Aug 2011 10:41:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 10:41:09 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Aug 02 12:41:05 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QoCPI-000169-C0 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 02 Aug 2011 12:41:04 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38574 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QoCPH-00089q-RH for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 02 Aug 2011 06:41:03 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:33892) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QoCPF-00089T-4A for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 02 Aug 2011 06:41:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QoCPE-0007TR-2Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 02 Aug 2011 06:41:01 -0400 Original-Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:32874) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QoCPD-0007TK-Pz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 02 Aug 2011 06:41:00 -0400 Original-Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QoCPA-00012n-Id for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 02 Aug 2011 12:40:56 +0200 Original-Received: from ip209-99-176-143.adsl2.static.versatel.nl ([143.176.99.209]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 02 Aug 2011 12:40:56 +0200 Original-Received: from sanderboer by ip209-99-176-143.adsl2.static.versatel.nl with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 02 Aug 2011 12:40:56 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 68 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: ip209-99-176-143.adsl2.static.versatel.nl X-BOFH: Aborted Authentication Lockout User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.50 (windows-nt) Cancel-Lock: sha1:/MaXzPlvPQ4Ooo/3eCfHSZNDN7w= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:142683 Archived-At: >>>>> "JV" == joakim writes: ...[38 lines removed]... JV| JV| I'm not really sure what you are talking about but if you want JV| to play with Emacs and HTML5 it is possible in a primitive way JV| with the xwidget branch. You can create a webkit area in an JV| Emacs buffer and manipulate it by injecting javascript fragments JV| in it. JV| JV| I would like to achieve a better elisp/DOM bridge for my JV| purposes but I'm procrastinating it because it's not obvious how JV| to do it in an interesting way. (Either by machine generating JV| DOM bindings with Cedet/SRecode, or by making some form of JV| adapter compatible with xml-parse-region) JV| JV| Anyway, if some of this HTML5 enthusiasm could be directed into JV| the furtherance of the xwidget branch, that would be JV| splendiferous :) JV| JV| -- Joakim Verona JV| JV| JV| Dear Joakim, I'm taking a top-down approach to this idea ("what does it all mean? ") because I am, as you might have guessed, code-agnostic as in pretty n00b. My n00b-ness notwithstanding, I am convinced that your work can unlock unlimited potential for emacs as a platform. As such I am rallying support for your effort and trying to engage a discussion on what a good implementation paradigm could be. Your approach to let's call it an opt-in canvas is a great way to implement a feature that can be perceived as an add-on, making it easier to dismiss. The discussion on whether the basic rendering engine of emacs is in need of close inspection is still valid and I wonder where the points of resistance are. Surely, the difficulty of (core) implementation can be overcome if there is widespread acceptance of its necessity. What would a 21st century text render engine do ? 1. look gorgeous (how does one domesticate a mix of variable width and mono spaced fonts) 2. provide a platform that caters to GUIs as well as terminals Where @1 can be dismissed as subjective and we land ourselves in a 'public acceptance' discussion, I would like to start off by simply stating that a aesthetics contribute to quality of life. Also, from a coding point of view, there is something to be said for coding on a platform that will be the platform of most Internet connected devices. Comments in variable width fonts anyone ? with hyper-links ? in-code bug-tracker ? in-code collaboration ?! @2 however touches the core of the text-rendering paradigm as it is now and I feel it is an unnecessary duality that takes the weakest platform (terminals) as its starting point. I know that did not happen by choice but by progressing from a term-based environment to a GUI based environment. Today's emacs acts and feels like an upgraded terminal app. I feel the opposite approach must be investigated, where one would 'downgrade' a GUI app to fit a terminal environment, much akin to the term browsers we like so much. -- Sander Boer