From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Karl Fogel Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: GNU Emacs raison d'etre Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 16:36:53 -0500 Message-ID: <87eerexp8q.fsf@red-bean.com> References: <5230692c-c665-a330-7a12-e59fa25d97dd@gmail.com> <70bb51fd-447d-928c-4d69-1c9673a44471@online.de> <871rnnvmdx.fsf@red-bean.com> <87pnb7sira.fsf@red-bean.com> <06bcddd4-6991-e4f7-e944-93de14af263d@yandex.ru> <87h7wjsd8o.fsf@red-bean.com> <20897f01-122d-7f91-eac2-70f5ad75796f@yandex.ru> <87d077qfmm.fsf@red-bean.com> <0462aa4d-3bad-4ae0-81b6-af1e172da31e@default> Reply-To: Karl Fogel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="90421"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, Andreas =?utf-8?Q?R=C3=B6hler?= , Dmitry Gutov To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed May 20 23:37:42 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jbWPG-000NR0-GW for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 20 May 2020 23:37:42 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:50080 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jbWPF-00031e-Jd for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 20 May 2020 17:37:41 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:49808) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jbWOZ-0002P0-7m for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 20 May 2020 17:36:59 -0400 Original-Received: from newsp.red-bean.com ([45.79.25.59]:48498) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jbWOY-0000tC-6w for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 20 May 2020 17:36:58 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=red-bean.com; s=202005newsp; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID: In-Reply-To:Date:Reply-To:References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description; bh=MtlbLWXcM0fkN85MwF3RTKGGJjby9dGmO7IuQ6qFWuY=; t=1590010617; x=1591220217; b=akzeXJlSE8Xi6pKVZX0p6s1QcQnNGoaXc0s6hsCVZN6qDAob5fUzjztE+BkBOvNYm3/HKQD6p5 hVrWPgyYxpzckzf8Y9YVGETyW7ya4ptaEI47k9uMvSjchIQ/pF6mYSLF/Pg9X15uvy/3TH0Ese0V4 kcA2cAywZvuMcQeaaxGb5fkoGAXzd5oIyg3VWJCLP8OhrfIy9lNVoTg0IuVhLB0Gee5+zT1LE0rYX PxsqWRE7SI6ieEsCGtnnY5zhvb7S1pElv82bwU33LA8ZWlWhHo0NywRbUgrRv9OtWSQAgaLE6tr4A d0/W8YQ9SJclwY8OLxjZDJOTa79HtAG0X7NtQ==; Original-Received: from 99-112-125-163.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net ([99.112.125.163]:58556 helo=floss) by newsp.red-bean.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jbWOU-00026y-Kp; Wed, 20 May 2020 21:36:54 +0000 In-Reply-To: <0462aa4d-3bad-4ae0-81b6-af1e172da31e@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 17 May 2020 00:09:07 -0700 (PDT)") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=45.79.25.59; envelope-from=kfogel@red-bean.com; helo=newsp.red-bean.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/20 17:36:56 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:251118 Archived-At: On 17 May 2020, Drew Adams wrote: >> > I believe we'll make better decisions if we keep in >> > mind that "friendly to newcomers" is not, in itself, >> > the primary goal. >> >> It's not like extreme user-friendliness was ever a >> guiding principle here. :-) > >I disagree. There is a difference between "extreme >user-friendliness" - which I think is, and should be, >a guiding principle here, and prioritizing "friendly >to newcomers". While "friendly to newcomers" means something on its own, "user-friendliness" only means something after one has characterized the users in question. That's the main point I've been trying to make: that there is no such thing as a generic user, so we have to make decisions about which kinds of users to optimize for. In most UI/UX conversations (not necessarily here, but on the Net in general), most of the time people unconsciously say "user-friendly" as a synonym for "easy for newcomers to pick up quickly" -- without realizing that it also implies "tends not to reward sustained investment", since these two qualities inevitably trade off. So if we characterize our users as "those who see, or who have the potential to see, the value of making a sustained investment in their text manipulation environment", *then* yes, by all means Emacs should be user-friendly. But if we're saying "user-friendly" in the colloquial sense that most people use the term in, then no, I think it would be a mistake for Emacs to aim for that. Best regards, -Karl