From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ricardo Wurmus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 13:20:11 +0200 Message-ID: <87een96fpw.fsf@elephly.net> References: <87y2lkb6kb.fsf@gmail.com> <9A4FA038-CCFD-45DF-8B57-E348AFF951D9@gmail.com> <87sgbsb0eb.fsf@gmail.com> <87h7s6c31d.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="29242"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.4.13; emacs 27.1 Cc: Gregory Heytings , Yuan Fu , Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: TEC Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Sep 10 13:19:36 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kGKc4-0007Vi-NX for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 13:19:36 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:58674 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kGKc3-00026e-Pi for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 07:19:35 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:32806) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kGKba-0001gg-CH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 07:19:06 -0400 Original-Received: from sender4-of-o51.zoho.com ([136.143.188.51]:21114) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kGKbW-0000Vb-Px for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 07:19:06 -0400 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1599736739; cv=none; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; b=iGV6MhYvx+m8AAEh/bN/XBcqMuRLyEOFdhP+qSsgc/5BoFiCf3/aPm4uPtVT3Czr6Q4JIBbMZilLZHtITrajGg9apyPmOx8C8x3/2aGUEjrhsC5h87gUvVjlJdsUOWwYOGfeCaacepgdgE2pLGv9wapnGp0DqdKeLJn0/2sBgxo= ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; t=1599736739; h=Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Date:From:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Message-ID:References:Subject:To; bh=BDBrDryMkyaAzA+SmHiTA6XimDSvR+U41EXDlb0UP4A=; b=NrRgkIPeaWkJSvB8MACahNhrYChal1/HHhr/VbPzgf6lZZRoWXdZV22AL97Yl3G/XWQl7tRMjnZy8Xnmg8/ZBfI8RNG3zy7gVrq8xAip0Z1NvKG/bGvuUf4z3Ie4t3eSXSNNhtdVZNwWfCNMor4JSp5TqM19G14xootcTr7sqSk= ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.zohomail.com; dkim=pass header.i=elephly.net; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=rekado@elephly.net; dmarc=pass header.from= header.from= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1599736739; s=zoho; d=elephly.net; i=rekado@elephly.net; h=References:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-reply-to:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; bh=BDBrDryMkyaAzA+SmHiTA6XimDSvR+U41EXDlb0UP4A=; b=cSq0/M0q8FWyJX/sb3SalShocQMwARVyOBs3Bk7XxZu16g+UY0+lP1ITnNa7oCzf hcZSNnmVhmLez37KiPEqNC/ZpcoZ/BaWyaM3F6XJCRm/FBADqVQcBVrEgTjkdiBzNwq DrdaBIWgwlW3Z066Ty/DPqPPL5kzLc+7Pnd54QTY= Original-Received: from localhost (p54ad4af6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.173.74.246]) by mx.zohomail.com with SMTPS id 1599736737891650.0771568875447; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 04:18:57 -0700 (PDT) In-reply-to: <87h7s6c31d.fsf@gmail.com> X-URL: https://elephly.net X-PGP-Key: https://elephly.net/rekado.pubkey X-PGP-Fingerprint: BCA6 89B6 3655 3801 C3C6 2150 197A 5888 235F ACAC X-ZohoMailClient: External Received-SPF: pass client-ip=136.143.188.51; envelope-from=rekado@elephly.net; helo=sender4-of-o51.zoho.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/10 06:37:33 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:254971 Archived-At: TEC writes: > So the 'issue' here isn't a direct "this doesn't look good so I won't > use this" but a case of association. When I see the vanilla Emacs splash > screen I'm reminded of the *worst* editors I have experienced, which is > (as we both know) completely inaccurate, but first impressions are > coloured by a myriad of factors. > > Vim of course also lacks a splash screen, but it's also known as a > terminal-exclusive editor. I know I tend to set different expectations > TUIs and GUIs, so I'd imagine I'd find this less of a subconscious > red-flag. This is something I have seen in other people who wanted to learn Emacs after they saw me use it and heard me evangelize=E2=80=A6 When they get sta= rted with vanilla Emacs they see something that looks like it=E2=80=99s going to= be a lot of work to make it work well for them. Many of them do know of Vim, if only for the fact that they don=E2=80=99t k= now how to exit it. (They realize then that they also don=E2=80=99t know how to exit Emacs.) They remember that Vim requires a lot of work to make it do things that it doesn=E2=80=99t do out of the box, and they fear they=E2= =80=99ll have to do the same with Emacs. At that point their initial enthusiasm has all but disappeared and they glance over to their colleagues who use Rstudio or Atom (in 2017) or that proprietary editor Sublime. Everything seems so easy and approachable and just as extensible. They see their colleague use Git from within Rstudio and wonder if they=E2=80=99d ever get to that point if = they will first have to configure Emacs to do all the basic things first. When I started to use Emacs (after the third serious attempt switching from vim) I had lots of time on my hands =E2=80=94 literally, because I had= just decided to learn touch typing with Dvorak. Everything was uncomfortable and new, so the pain of learning Emacs and making Emacs learn about me disappeared in an ocean of unrelated discomfort. This situation doesn=E2= =80=99t seem to be very common in those that are curious about Emacs. --=20 Ricardo