From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eduardo Mercovich Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Interactive guide for new users Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2020 19:15:38 -0300 Message-ID: <87eemun5dh.fsf@mercovich.net> References: <875z8ortot.fsf@gkayaalp.com> <83lfhjkq0r.fsf@gnu.org> <8620B5CD-CA92-46BF-80A8-DBE7052F4CA6@gmail.com> <87d02haj4g.fsf@mercovich.net> <87ft7dn0um.fsf@posteo.net> <831rix3ci8.fsf@gnu.org> <878sd5aba5.fsf@mercovich.net> <83y2l51uh1.fsf@gnu.org> <874knta1e4.fsf@mercovich.net> <83imc90zbk.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="14063"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.3.3; emacs 27.1 Cc: self@gkayaalp.com, philipk@posteo.net, emacs-devel@gnu.org, casouri@gmail.com, stefankangas@gmail.com To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 22 00:32:09 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kKULw-0003YP-W9 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 00:32:08 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:42940 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kKULw-0001D9-1V for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 21 Sep 2020 18:32:08 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:60062) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kKU6H-00061F-Cn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 21 Sep 2020 18:15:57 -0400 Original-Received: from gil.mayfirst.org ([162.247.75.206]:47519) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kKU6D-00028b-Q8; Mon, 21 Sep 2020 18:15:57 -0400 Original-Received: from gil.mayfirst.org (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by gil.mayfirst.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E375C5EB1; Mon, 21 Sep 2020 18:15:50 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (Authenticated sender: xxxxx) with ESMTPSA id 469735E89 In-reply-to: <83imc90zbk.fsf@gnu.org> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Received-SPF: none client-ip=162.247.75.206; envelope-from=eduardo@mercovich.net; helo=gil.mayfirst.org X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/21 18:15:46 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:256305 Archived-At: Hi Eli. [...] >> >> 1. distributions first [...] >> > I don't see any need to do this, certainly not as the first step. If >> > someone wants one of those versions, they don't need us. =20 >> New users don't know they exist... we are only opening their eyes. > I think they already do know. Moreover, I think they will decide to > try those before they get to see what you are planning to make happen. Those things I prefer to measure them in an experiment. :) Anyway, I totally agree that it's not our priority now. [...] >> Perfect. Is it there any agreed upon list of things on this front? > Not only don't we have an agreed-upon list, we don't even have a > proposal for an exhaustive list. [...] If we can come up with such a > list, discuss it, agree on it, and have a reasonable grouping (if > needed), that would be a huge progress towards making everything > discussed here close to happening.=20 Then, since such a list seems valuable (before discussing the value of a common vision), I propose a process to generate that list based on some simple tested and working principles (*1):=20 1- Let's collect a list of all the proposed preferences, by any member of this list (to start). Everyone is invited to propose as many as it wants.=20 2- Then we prioritize with the same group (this list) by giving each person a certain amount of points depending on the total amount of preferences. It could range from 40% if they are few, to ~50% if they are many, say, more than 20. Just as an example, if the total collected options are 25 (since many people will agreed on some basic ones and have a particular one to add, it could be bigger, of course) we may give ~14 points to each person.=20 3- Each person can cast it's points as it likes: all of them to 1 preference, 1 to each preference while it's points lasts, or any combination in between. In the previous example, someone can put their 14 points to show-line-numbers, other to 14 different options (1 point per option), and a third 5 to show-line-numbers, 6 to CUA-or-Emacs cut-copy-paste, and 3 to show-menu-bar.=20 4- We sum the total points per preference. Order from more to less points. If they are few (say, less than a dozen), they can go all. If they are too much, we can cut using any agreed upon criteria like a kind of Pareto (66%~80% of the total points awarded) or other (the 1st N items).=20 If this seems ok to all of you, with this process we will have gone from many persons with different opinions to a mostly agreed of the most accepted (or desired) preferences to be set for the general editor preferences. And it shouldn't take more than a few days at most (we have to see what tool to use, since I assume that proprietary tools are not acceptable; Limesurvey allows this, even if it's a bit oversized..).=20 This process can be repeated for each "section" or group that we may like (like org-mode or whatever you may find valuable after this).=20 Now, after the list-making, we can make the screens (they don't have to be functional) and test them with users as I commented on a previous mail.= =20 What do you think?=20 (*1) From Sociocracy, maximize (democratize) input and optimize decision making, plus the acceptable options range; from agile, let's try to have something good enough working to validate our assumptions and learn from reality before investing too much or taking too much time.=20 --=20 eduardo mercovich Donde se cruzan tus talentos=20 con las necesidades del mundo,=20 ah=C3=AD est=C3=A1 tu vocaci=C3=B3n.=20 (An=C3=B3nimo)