From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs Survey: Toolbars Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 10:24:07 +0100 Message-ID: <87eejqnlxk.fsf@gnus.org> References: <87o8iv3ac3.fsf@gnus.org> <56d1484e-6f41-575f-0fbb-fd2bd99ab152@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="4749"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Dec 16 10:24:57 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kpT3I-00016N-Mg for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 10:24:56 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44474 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpT3H-0000F3-PQ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 04:24:55 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:60176) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpT2d-0008HE-Ab for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 04:24:15 -0500 Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([2a01:4f9:2b:f0f::2]:55462) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpT2b-000375-Jh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 04:24:15 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=pArM3Mt1F4i1abvnnwfqRnsP/zw30BGSxvmFqk6H9cE=; b=kikfvjJjQzjE6+dqmegRFPuER/ QFEch93wfk//nOT7wzU7txhEAge6C5BoTxpIXhbqQxa4zx46twf0f1AL/5VlQX+8BiDMtYVSLdc9F fxH4CTDk/649tJJVohKtyFrfLFOkSAFqx6bOVBfWoJ4Y08OT4RK6H+1E1rBXWKHe+keY=; Original-Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kpT2X-0005lW-1e; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 10:24:11 +0100 X-Now-Playing: Joni Mitchell's _The Early Years (4)_: "track" In-Reply-To: <56d1484e-6f41-575f-0fbb-fd2bd99ab152@yandex.ru> (Dmitry Gutov's message of "Tue, 15 Dec 2020 23:07:28 +0200") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a01:4f9:2b:f0f::2; envelope-from=larsi@gnus.org; helo=quimby.gnus.org X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:260972 Archived-At: Dmitry Gutov writes: > I also think the poll is heavily biased in favor of either Reddit > users (who are largely either power-users, or those who inspire to > be), or experienced Emacs users in general. My impression is that that's not accurate -- there's certainly experienced people who hang out on the Emacs Reddit group, but there's also a lot of new users. (And my guess is that the latter group is larger, based on the questions I see asked there.) In the mega-thread about modernising Emacs, the common refrain was that we needed actual data on what users do. We now have some data, and I don't think we should just dismiss that data because of statistical quibbles. And the data says that, at present, the Emacs toolbars are not very useful. Stefan's point about improving the toolbars so that they become useful is good, but I'm not sure that's realistic: We've had these toolbars for decades, and not much has happened with them. (Except growing progressively smaller.) I mean, look at the toolbar that happens when you "emacs -Q": You get an Emacs with a scratch buffer... with a "Save" icon. In a buffer that can't be saved. That's how much attention we've spent on toolbars in two decades. All the items in the *scratch* buffer toolbar are more natural for a menu, and they're already present there. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no