From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?Q?K=C3=A9vin_Le_Gouguec?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Allowing point to be outside the window? Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 18:14:11 +0100 Message-ID: <87ee70td7g.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87ilwd7zaq.fsf.ref@yahoo.com> <87ilwd7zaq.fsf@yahoo.com> <83bl24yaed.fsf@gnu.org> <87sfvg7l51.fsf@yahoo.com> <87ee70l27e.fsf@gmail.com> <83ilwcwaga.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="8658"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, acm@muc.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Nov 28 18:14:54 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mrNlO-00024h-0p for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 18:14:54 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:32882 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mrNlN-0008Sm-5a for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 12:14:53 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:58550) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mrNkn-0007g5-Dc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 12:14:18 -0500 Original-Received: from [2a00:1450:4864:20::332] (port=56170 helo=mail-wm1-x332.google.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mrNkl-00048r-B3; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 12:14:17 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-wm1-x332.google.com with SMTP id p18so12698662wmq.5; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 09:14:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ntTDI38wLzrWpfFAhWNahfuDjYRgkFtShUBrU/tK1Qk=; b=iGLjhfCWPVSwKJYXk+UnD0Uw0BAQf+b1WzSIqzXMP1MxfLnpMhzcXLQFOZLxviinhO ONlfVZgAhyMPdSpwBechab8e9xfbaMmxpcOkbzXn4yq9S+hckVwW17RrERe7fPWuWM2A olB9khlAEVaOTRbZBqAHu1kkbLbcDtcRcpLXLH8nxROg29DrHXkBKZT/CN1oicgrvxBg XmUvj+lghZJVWB4CienghY4Ez2Sxc+MptgFBE1HSA2CsUAZ9P18oN9l/IrmqxeeYYzg2 aNiJzqiDz0QhQsiXhW7La3gx3HVx8yr3Hve/CvrCC78fHF8LIy8vsK3fp7zghDcVdwkH wcVg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ntTDI38wLzrWpfFAhWNahfuDjYRgkFtShUBrU/tK1Qk=; b=Ky09YMdbEShoJ4kF3rKs71AEhAbU9ad2Wq2FoFOGHBGzkzKLUf3xG78InqiTxB4hK5 rDm+vxGNSZTSLoxh4h6J7x4X3tYAAYls0m7wabYc1B72FBtePfkiM6UF6YO6k0m2t3nk b24tyrB37nxZjrjb2nC0NBQI9eDjGcLcSMkvFCAMWc6TkgPtPwbPFuhJPgvR0y2u85bD +rziPgaH5+tGx2gvS9IrZeVKXEehgQGzSqcUo1B0+bnWzNHIvwafxwDnmjtuliOh7RUT Vu+sUJDenBSjn0gcH46+tONl8dZjNEEq0HGPBeoTzHqQ5ePnZEOOaup5gmAKN1JN9/Vu 6paQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533GEN5d4Mqq3w/Q26dkKGGvsMs9aSW8BlfDKKiq9aShEw9EcmCC Ox2OWkfjQNEuIXgg22kkMIw2xWGSW2I= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxm3kze0nT/k5bWz6dEflAfFfxlyvBGyC/d4++Qh0iqlRJcIhmlxJ06zbpzDDeiWqghbtPe0A== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:9d13:: with SMTP id g19mr30828614wme.41.1638119652910; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 09:14:12 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from amdahl30 ([2a01:e0a:253:fe0:2ef0:5dff:fed2:7b49]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a9sm11414780wrt.66.2021.11.28.09.14.11 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 28 Nov 2021 09:14:12 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <83ilwcwaga.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sun, 28 Nov 2021 17:45:25 +0200") X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2a00:1450:4864:20::332 (failed) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::332; envelope-from=kevin.legouguec@gmail.com; helo=mail-wm1-x332.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -12 X-Spam_score: -1.3 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, PDS_HP_HELO_NORDNS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:280430 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: K=C3=A9vin Le Gouguec >> Cc: Po Lu , Eli Zaretskii , >> emacs-devel@gnu.org >> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 16:39:01 +0100 >>=20 >> > I detest this behaviour, and that Emacs doesn't (currently) do it is a >> > large part of the reason why I use Emacs. With these other programs I >> > experience a constant background stress, that the careless or accident= al >> > depression of a key causes BANG!!! and the text I was reading >> > disappears for ever, being overwritten by the text around point. >>=20 >> I don't see how (what I understand of) Po's proposition could lead to >> such catastrophic text Armageddon. And in any case, Emacs's trusty undo >> would surely come and save the day. > > Undo doesn't undo display operations, only editing operations. Right; on my first read (and second, and third=E2=80=A6 I did try to unders= tand Alan's problem scenario and its consequences, but I obviously failed), I interpreted "[disappearing] forever, being overwritten" as describing an editing hazard (akin to erasing the selection in a single keystroke when delete-selection-mode is on) rather than a "sudden shift of viewport" issue. FWIW I find the absence of a blinking cursor conspicuous enough to remind me that the cursor is actually somewhere else (and that typing in text or moving around will bring me back to this cursor), but I understand the concern. "Keep the feature opt-in" sounds like a good way to avoid surprises; even for people who might enable the feature, maybe having a fringe indicator at the top or the bottom of the window (to indicate in which direction point lies) would help? (Especially if it blinks according to blink-cursor-mode)