From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tim Cross Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Org mode and Emacs Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2022 16:58:07 +1000 Message-ID: <87edzzzjx9.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87h74ztshe.fsf@gmx.de> <871qw31ois.fsf@yahoo.com> <8735gj4ceo.fsf@gnu.org> <87ee038ipt.fsf@gmx.de> <87o7z61v59.fsf@gmail.com> <87bkv527p5.fsf@gmail.com> <835yld93w7.fsf@gnu.org> <877d5t0yrn.fsf@gmail.com> <87r140yuof.fsf@gmail.com> <875ylbwuxf.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="27018"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.7.26; emacs 28.1.50 Cc: Stefan Monnier , Alan Mackenzie , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Visuwesh Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Jun 08 09:38:33 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nyqGv-0006wQ-Im for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 09:38:33 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33026 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nyqGt-0006t2-T4 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 03:38:31 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:50774) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nyqEW-00061f-4k for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 03:36:06 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pj1-x102e.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::102e]:33966) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nyqET-0005UK-4E for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 03:36:02 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pj1-x102e.google.com with SMTP id mh16-20020a17090b4ad000b001e8313301f1so9355789pjb.1 for ; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 00:36:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:date:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=x7Cx0BmXZEVosQ9wyJhWiyOVOaZTi6oxBlTYD8Ze9mg=; b=cbDoFeeUuL+an5yHD2FV2c8Yfu2nOBWm9s7DkaQhQFEWbI8o2m4lQj55V4dxwGJNkZ GdNXmGLRh1ZxPj735B/6s7xn8MO8q265wfIgk9UihVdiDQKnVODNRKIf12nwk9MOH2nK xqWAPsoVGKSFkFukAEj9jDBqLp8f3zlgb6D8Tezo7sGS7Ot+kV7gQBdXYQANMCcFYi1p 4Q7kBX+DmQGa+Ohub6ylIKCEHdXoEAGY/uM/HRGtVW9Mm27r9d6W0g40IJXDT2CMwxix K1Z3lp/5QWVWvwP2jCEPjoGU8ur9ARIAi/unXn2JuXKR9th67awAVGR2IwTlxbD3+cnN RTgA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:date :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=x7Cx0BmXZEVosQ9wyJhWiyOVOaZTi6oxBlTYD8Ze9mg=; b=zR+SxDs8490RlPeQKluy7xJbYs1XVg8qyr6kY45sUUlq2lnvCGU/rtrgTMx2g9J0Du aI52qJdSjejP33QEJY+yMIiaYkNFRI/oS+SU5rPg5qu5MyrI3q4t67WKEyTh/OjbEkJj PpmeXAFrQD56Jfs5oUey6S01aWuxa4isk2XlTLXSN6Z/4D+il0X8SvnhUKlXaNu2/xeV 9rZ+VxQVQWDxsNe92bhrFRUV1l7dDJY+pP9YBNEtkeZI8jFdVt4ErtNQgZ+VSJaj/nve bLBn1p7RtyqWs5oIusttXuU1C8sLwotzjxwJdJmpGf7NGQVc5iiQEjljYwPNG0YXmOB1 hvNw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532waJKcnlmemSR8mggWb5d33M1+SSVDAaML6kBJSVS5gfcKx9kH 5P1eNIa5HsM3K3fUIPBKhe/zv1X5Frk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwTbbiq+OezDOHyjgJzmXiJcbhgtPXIhXNmRV47n/ADgDdFZp+FQN43p/c/DnJTCbuAorpUbA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:1d08:b0:1e4:dad9:64e5 with SMTP id on8-20020a17090b1d0800b001e4dad964e5mr40773344pjb.200.1654673759400; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 00:35:59 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from dingbat (2001-44b8-31f2-bb00-cd2b-640d-0e7c-d2cf.static.ipv6.internode.on.net. [2001:44b8:31f2:bb00:cd2b:640d:e7c:d2cf]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t7-20020a17090a4e4700b001df4b919937sm15789379pjl.16.2022.06.08.00.35.56 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 08 Jun 2022 00:35:58 -0700 (PDT) In-reply-to: <875ylbwuxf.fsf@gmail.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::102e; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-pj1-x102e.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:290906 Archived-At: Visuwesh writes: > [=E0=AE=AA=E0=AF=81=E0=AE=A4=E0=AE=A9=E0=AF=8D =E0=AE=9C=E0=AF=82=E0=AE= =A9=E0=AF=8D 08, 2022] Tim Cross wrote: > >> [...] >> - Increasing org's use of built-in Emacs capabilities rather than using >> org specific implementations. For example, adopting transient instead >> of an org implemented module which replicates similar functionality.=20 > > Where can I read more about this? I see it being mentioned a few times > in the org-mode mailing list, and in the matrix room. Is the plan to > completely remove the org-mks interface and replace it with transient > without having an option to use the former? I find org-mks perfectly > fine to use and would be sad if it was replaced with transient. > Transient needs time to get used to, and the default settings is quite > un-Emacsy; I'm not too excited about configuring yet another package > that has a hard-to-understand manual TBH. The specifics of what is planned are still being worked out. Initially, the likely initial candidate for change will be to the export menu. Unless you have extensive low level customisation, it should not be a change which has significant impact on users. In fact, maintaining backwards compatibility and consistency for end users is important to the org developers. It is also quite possible that after an initial investigation, it may be decided transient is not a good option for org mode or perhaps it will be a good option once additonal functionality or enhancements are added. Right now, all that has been agreed is that it would be worthwhile looking at it to see if it can be of benefit in helping to reduce org maintenance overheads and/or increase org's consistency with other emacs packages.=20 What will determine what remains and what choices are available will depend on what involvement people have in the development and what will be maintainable. There are a number of areas in org mode where functionality has been implemented that is 80+% equivalent to functionality which exists or has been added to core emacs. Having this duplication of effort is adding to the burden of maintenance, which is already significant. In general, org maintainers keep an eye on what is being added/expanded in Emacs core and when things are added, like transient mode, they are assessed to see if adopting that functionality would reduce the org maintenance load and improve org's consistency withi the rest of Emacs. At this stage, transient has been added as something to look at in the backlog. When this task makes if off the backlog, the typical process would be for it to be discussed on the org devel list, for initial implementations to be done either in its own branch (if considered a significantly large enough change) or on the development branch otherwise and people will be asked to try it out.=20 So, if your interested in this area, the first thing would be to get on the org devel mail list. Anyone who is particularly keen to see such things added might also initiate discussions and development in their own branch, which could then be added in as a PR. However, like Emacs, any significant development work on org mode also requires FSF copyright assignment.=20 At this specific point in time, the main focus with org has been on stability, performance improvements, especially for large org files with many babel blocks and sections and improvements to the org syntax and provi= sion of an org parser,=20=20 In particular, I think the work being done by Ihor on folding and the org parser will have huge benefits. In addition to making the code base easier to maintain and improving performance, it will help reduce org's current dependency on complicated and difficult to maintain regular expressions in the font-locking layer. This should improve performance and reduce errors or unexpected results that sometimes occur because of regexp errors etc and reduce time spent by maintainers in tracking down such errors and maintenance of those complex regexps.=20=20=20