From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Abysmal state of GTK build Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2022 09:36:10 +0800 Message-ID: <87edx65sol.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <8735dn30if.fsf@gmail.com> <87pmgr8m3t.fsf@yahoo.com> <83pmgr88sk.fsf@gnu.org> <87sfln6t3p.fsf@yahoo.com> <83ilmj873l.fsf@gnu.org> <8735dn6rp7.fsf@yahoo.com> <87edx7hu15.fsf@telefonica.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="22839"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar?= Fuentes Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Aug 24 03:37:26 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oQfKf-0005nZ-Su for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 24 Aug 2022 03:37:25 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:36058 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oQfKe-0004cj-Qg for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 23 Aug 2022 21:37:24 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:54184) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oQfJg-0003PS-8K for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Aug 2022 21:36:24 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic309-22.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.184.148]:34275) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oQfJe-00053G-3n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Aug 2022 21:36:23 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1661304978; bh=ufjF5uLhzUuN1/Sxh4pbmDE0l0ISegW4fE0ItLvOepY=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=Y5Lvo+UiYfue0/MHavISQfZSRGCQ7FYfQ08gdACITxJzOESHPRgw1D4BjEdGf5WyCXFUr16OWMHEPnAuy6DLJfSqhoS/d/a3AptTfXrrRHwkZhOoHKevD+xc7kkUJSWuIgcU+o85ejlDNpAU/yy7cfRQ15Ky5wv6udo9fyuHZ1LZeInJ+Q8sEpybw+PgxJNJGApY5/9sJwkm3aZSTJm5xCNfs23ylrVKbGCvPaR7ZwPg+n7fk8ypCRV1SROSen/D3K1gyVJQJmtbaQeBmKj44R6pRFd8zzF7KIZupXLuZI+fl4SuMrRy4DPQ6Ep7ziMlVdcnu3F/DKvMqmbin0+2lg== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1661304978; bh=NrB+HdTGdckP0Jm4+nymoIvwLqfMnbjC+/wxESIY6hH=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=idyDtvydEMhSmH0nWgvRxvuBAOMf4jcc3PFBw1VUrK0rJ/O1CDgg2h4neZf/9Uk9oq6/qP3Mbm/PIxzIiwWhAbTM2loOdYMj7oQpl2HNbauh09vMnPKMOyjYPalwt+0XbIU78X6mWIHKFkuo07PZpy5K8nPvjkje+WPTK7k+fXw29siv+pyzWdoOPHuref6iExQJus9eqZfaIxKh3/WQnAsmCdXCns56BFKx/wsa+0nAZ6uNjUELV1Fjf2oVIZCfIa6p/sCyBj3Gb+hs2w57i00pcp63Snd0/nkYWq9AtxM8xOUCPpzaWeUkFjZXC7s9iAm+3nSdJjY7+SnkNMKldQ== X-YMail-OSG: lE0clnQVM1lS2KgB3GM7acIF3aH54vc9i2xOSOFJv7WFslDd6pXtV6.gmGQZqmq KxHdUNexFJHkQ3hzdaG.7PiDt6Ip.1PQgGqkPk0ouvD887Ex_NutG34JURO6d1qMYXLaZ1D6uxkS DJhOizQpsw1wMnrGRcaK8sJGm5WAQ6.UP_6l6J0TK3SFwWicvzpZ_KqNqYMLu6vsT1EUBWdj60D3 pcWn67J3fN_N3eEJ3RXGD6Qq4RXjmVatG0kUQIBlQsLezzXU076QoZcmoN3_5w8_10qAPCiku7Yh uk4VwSuCkq.553vIVbjc0Kq7ohyxE1B01W4X3zjY4AheFLqjJxXv_xvStD_1uqRzUJJv6lVrvarT 28sEgeU3Z1iTFp7nrf7zMYBj_9qgJ_T1WIQwF16fLclHS4WI2SuQyQ_HVM9GxQQgomnEPXw_5pVb XNGCSU.oVBtWAfj7Q4pmPp0__S25IRtKzCgwkpVQk6wUseRWaqiO.EybLeVyXsv4Xj8bWWBMYmHT KdfLeArUIUi7iT5hHDNG3clsCrRntCcl6.ATlJDzqvvMx0KiWfqpN_SKgvJxqFvddvq0Nrjv0u1m tFL3ZT7GUgyCfRvnCA4KeAFZv05SF_jdY9O8jYmGBvsOk9Iogx.hhdh4n67dEtMT9lTGSnQXenKN ioL8O1C25vYxsQFZmrXY.nchfs7_lSLYwj4EUnS67hxbI_tfhHFv2cdZYRKBShaA4K8hbUaCm6nW pO_uagJa.3vA7pmitRzEC.8rjF10LqWx.aHCpL.AAx_nlTWeSr1b4jsgkt72ay4MjpCPHK12zNnJ VBZGH1pclHB1LwrmaERu.mltNAZP0Zvnam6EFhMGS3 X-Sonic-MF: Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic309.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Wed, 24 Aug 2022 01:36:18 +0000 Original-Received: by hermes--canary-production-sg3-6f58cd9b5-84qt6 (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 8f6b93d4aec5cf9a1795abd53f552b64; Wed, 24 Aug 2022 01:36:14 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <87edx7hu15.fsf@telefonica.net> (=?utf-8?Q?=22=C3=93scar?= Fuentes"'s message of "Tue, 23 Aug 2022 17:13:58 +0200") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.20560 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.184.148; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic309-22.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:293926 Archived-At: =C3=93scar Fuentes writes: > The 90% X Firefox user share you mentioned several times was a statistic > of dubious relevance when it came out 6 months ago and is pretty much > irrelevant now. 6 months ago makes it "irrelevant now"? > The Mozilla Telemetry guys said at the time that it is not truly > representative, for several reasons. Could you find those "several reasons"? > And, more importantly, Wayland adoption is gaining momentum, with > major distros (such as Ubuntu) defaulting to it and KDE joining Gnome > as a stable Wayland-based desktop environment. It can hardly be called stable (like Wayland in general) when it implements a different screencast protocol extension from GNOME Shell and wlroots. > I'll say that by 2025 Wayland will be more popular than X by a wide > margin, and then X will have a hard time with basic maintenance by lack > of manpower (some insiders say that it already suffers from that.) I will always be available to take up anything that might be missing on the X server side of things. But contrary to what people repeat off internet blogs, the X server is not seeing a lack of maintenance, manpower, or even new features: XInput 2.4, with support for trackpad gestures, was released approximately a year ago, which shows that it is evolving faster than it was during the heyday of X development in the mid-90s. X is also a stable and mature system, by nature of its much more centralized development methodology, meaning that it requires less manpower to keep working than Wayland, where every feature is preceded by two to three protocol extensions from different organizations, and constant changes in the display server are required to keep up with updates to unstable protocol extensions. > This doesn't mean much for Emacs on the short and medium term. Emacs > works on XWayland, and XWayland is improving so applications running on > it doesn't suffer from a degraded user experience compared to native > Wayland ones, apart from the constraints related to being based on X. HiDPI does not work on XWayland. It is also impossible to actively grab or warp the pointer. All of these are very basic problems that have not yet been solved. > Another claim you made several times is that distros will stop providing > GTK2 packages soon. This is hard to believe, since other major > applications (such as GIMP, as you said) also use GTK2 and distros still > provide packages for libraries way more ancient and obscure than GTK2. The GIMP is the last program keeping GTK+ 2.x in package repositories. Previously, there was also wxWidgets, but almost everyone is in the process of switching to its GTK 3 backend. The moment GIMP 3.0 is released, GTK+ 2.x will disappear. > Finally, it seems to me that your experience with some GTK developers is > influencing your technical discussion on this thread. No, not at all.