From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Adding use-package to core Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2022 18:47:26 +0800 Message-ID: <87edu5izi9.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <87fsemjs7v.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="35713"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: "xenodasein--- viaEmacs development discussions." , eliz@gnu.org To: xenodasein@tutanota.de Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Nov 15 02:29:11 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1ouklC-00093W-6w for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2022 02:29:10 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ouip4-0001Vd-4Y; Mon, 14 Nov 2022 18:25:02 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ouigB-0004hX-2a for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 14 Nov 2022 18:15:51 -0500 Original-Received: from sonic308-56.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.187.31]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ouX09-00088w-4N for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 14 Nov 2022 05:47:42 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1668422856; bh=h0rfBx1wbTduoJR2/aDN71hNgWPBaj10shvNj62uT4c=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=ccYvSHl4PKG494/ckD/jjhX27K4AOxKRID6DwTG+eN9IXqWDEg8GjVeKTmeBgqHVVo7ABDsN7vwveNeUGd1l1n5ecWMfSNAVeaTQEAL4NmFWpXVd+68SJQLpvE41b/hHiceWw610mezgsuZwDNFBMadWhfu+xNsLtCBuNefvkw64sW7CljuL8AOE1h5fllhACAfXQZ9RiT5ShjXdLCBh3uHWWv4mFhgbFYknkoABzdstfDKOy86IDj9kFbejC5HBHVDZCCLEMR3wMpwdi1SKVOqQZvXPSBNFXBMxQaSS4Ep1AsOVzSM85NELJwnpE7qWwnBd4UFcqSt5SPV+aptLTQ== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1668422856; bh=dyf2RPztsKRkv/iUGPLRMW6sbLy77iMz8zR2KkKo804=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=eGxwfiJBQYyXOBjDWQ1hpSlkVdATEN+IdOJyQdFmCR5ahw1uIM6TiR7qgkyMtfck8syRjbFUtgSZl3Q/o4KXNwpQLEJ3ZuCSGmCo7yV4KiFWS8QcunRtlyWxNdQSCQYtlwujeNIYe5KkrYgXmU1YQnz5EXrYODa3AAe8aF/x4q+edodFPhjYkCEJdxEd+ZRhG2NVHqUTpGFg71bzg4c8nRL1k7FoySkfT5IlbYo3HL2VghC05VjOCCCn9VEkDLbwySnNN9+1BrC6jD165/N9xnh35W9DevIuaerOFzy4t5Dvo3Ue175Lx3uC0hRbqeokB4zar2+rjkx8QqRHzjtRbA== X-YMail-OSG: 2sg98GIVM1nSXGdMINDOw.Yzr592Dlz5_RJ9I2xaZ5qXwpWGy1Q9fzOsfPqhwxa 0ciQubNakSAf1YxVVf1SXRBT2YzD2fT7YSAqW7pxl3kPf3rTqQVKJ8se81G8Dmb3mz6VTefu.D7l kKq1lfSxwhQSr1iDZzno5J2EuuXhU6Xp_BY2wZuzb3jdsR9Ln7xj88vWRXa44TqlwmQagwKY99Qh U9uU3L_Kzgz6z9.tBPDTEaa6Qm0X8Fy8OmkuDIeTQ5HGFVamyyruj_oDHtIemmVZIg9o26eKad1P Pg0F67fC76h3YLE6Q79KTqLhC_n9F7EC2GP2dk0kH7vSrvmKUqQC8VkGJMmLZCOHRji79BFuf3hU PlJYDoVT1Syr8yERo.uW2HMHBTqfYrxAdkahMY9BmV8fS5pAwoMFif7eyNifOeDVUE8VVaB4n5lC 9itZJQ8uRVoQboWAtWW_yYIU1VXLbocE5GO8_Q3RBvlY9EJYzz4mIhe.vu.j4mn1qXGRH1n2GcnW S4_AXyxPoaZFUUzhisaEO3BwWmxnnOUEcJ1ZsaKmWyTKVIP8RVWNCxyAPCLR3RguKDG8ArBJ349r z2eTT0.i1oPwYBCXuSA3zRj.foEZcQmhbLNXCFWtJmyMDzqm1rfbbAbLCW7fENRhFu_rxXt_I874 UUC5VG7hLvdG2c99zwh22M.iNB2hE4yr1KG4RkzxRAytZZQss6OOo4WZ1pXiqLG3sele.CMEsXTb 7ORqo3GX8.4aPU.ZhCg3y5ZzA5jZbzIrfO.doLcY28LiEcBwhoyU5e_6SeqG7uC.VEeBI7WtTsx6 XJYdd3X0_FHcpFiCdPG4jv0M6CJ1GkRZg3u.8rjeB5 X-Sonic-MF: Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic308.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 14 Nov 2022 10:47:36 +0000 Original-Received: by hermes--production-sg3-6c8895b545-lgf2t (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID b4b39abc0316d629e58d31d35be7e221; Mon, 14 Nov 2022 10:47:31 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: (xenodasein@tutanota.de's message of "Mon, 14 Nov 2022 11:12:36 +0100 (CET)") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.20826 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.187.31; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic308-56.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:299818 Archived-At: xenodasein@tutanota.de writes: > Something changes or it doesn't, I have no clue what you mean. Most changes break nothing. > Anyway, 'statistics' in my head formed after looking through lisp files, > how many of them there, and the fact that how few people are maintaining > these, anyone can see this thanks to git. I don't see that. What I see instead is the same as with any other mature, well-established software: most of our code is finished and does not require constant changes. > Problem is over time commits to core packages keep making assumptions > about each other's existence and that inter-dependency does not seem > to encourage anyone to work on them, even their original writers. Any specific examples? Anyway, once a package is included with Emacs, and its minimum Emacs requirement also bumped, it is fine for it to rely on the rest of Emacs being present. But if its maintainer decides to support older versions of Emacs as well, then everyone else does not interfere. See TRAMP for an example of one such package. > Even you are in your own X corner and not touching that issue, except > for nay-saying on this list. It might not seem like it, but I have a job to keep me busy, and the amount of time I can spend on Emacs is quite limited. Add to that the fact that Emacs 29 is about to be released, and the major changes to the GUI code in it have inevitably led to regressions that have to be ironed out, and you will see why most of my changes in the past two months have been limited to minor refactorings and bug fixes. That approach seems to have paid off. For example, it has led to bugs that have lain unfound for almost 30 years being fixed (see for example 25c6bc7a3.) > Yeah? Who he is going to put in the cold hard work hours into > maintaining all that? Presumably whoever wrote the package and has *asked* us to include it into Emacs. > Furthermore after certain complexity it is of no help even having > numerous developers. [...] > These are well documented and understood facts of software development > and when someone keeps denying these things without substantial > argument it displays blatant incompetence. So by changing the repository in which some code is placed, other code is made more complex? By what, magic? > I don't see how bundling millions of lines of code together when there > is already a system to distribute these as external packages is a > shortcut to usefulness for everyone (what does that even mean?) You cannot seriously claim it is easier to run several commands to unpack and install a package in the ELPA directory than to do nothing at all.