From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Emanuel Berg Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Instead of pcase Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2023 05:30:28 +0100 Message-ID: <87edg3aowr.fsf@dataswamp.org> References: <87fs169mjj.fsf@posteo.net> <093f11a1-57c2-5e56-d39b-26fef1c67cbb@gutov.dev> <25942.25061.217864.329049@retriever.mtv.corp.google.com> <87zfzdcz6z.fsf@posteo.net> <763f067b-4ca9-1eba-9f3c-424c38589e9c@gutov.dev> <87v89ht2s4.fsf@linux-m68k.org> <87jzpxq8oi.fsf@posteo.net> <87plzoap38.fsf@dataswamp.org> <7n34wk1qrn.fsf@ecube.ecubist.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="12651"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:JSDSzrfR0MfeOx27OJ8wAWTqygc= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Dec 03 07:07:36 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r9fdg-00035x-El for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 03 Dec 2023 07:07:36 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r9fcv-000317-31; Sun, 03 Dec 2023 01:06:49 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r9e7w-0006X5-EV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 Dec 2023 23:30:44 -0500 Original-Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r9e7u-0001lb-Hy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 Dec 2023 23:30:44 -0500 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r9e7s-0002aX-F0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 03 Dec 2023 05:30:40 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Mail-Copies-To: never Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 03 Dec 2023 01:06:46 -0500 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:313482 Archived-At: Barry Fishman wrote: >> I thought pattern matching with in particular Haskell was >> neurotic because one would spend more time on it than one >> felt was called for, but I think Haskell invited to that >> kind of fiddling, I always thought of Elisp including >> `pcase' to be much more calm and relaxed? > > Your sense of calm and relaxation about `pcase' does not > seem to be shared by a lot of people, who think of it as > overly complex and ugly. Perception is reality, even when that perception is irrational. But in this case, I don't think anyone disapproved of some of the maintainers saying they perceived `cl-lib' and `pcase' to be sources of increased complexity, or that that perception was irrational in any way. If it came across that way, I don't think it was intentional from anyone. It was just how the whole thing was perceived by other people, they perceived it is a categorical stance, cl-lib and pcase are the root of evil, and we don't feel the need to nuance or discuss that with anyone because we are the maintainers. So if those people perceived it in that way, be it correct or incorrect, that was reality for them as well. So this is were it got ugly to some extent alltho it was held at a reasonable level for the most part. It is good that people are working on cond* now and it'll be interesting to use it if and when it gets added. Probably increased complexity in terms of the so-called "DSLs" introduced - but also increased expressiveness and power - from cl-lib and pcase will remain, but if we add cond* and improve documentation for cl-lib and pcase that can reduce the negativity how the whole thing is perceived by some people, and hopefully the kind of frustration that was felt can be chanelled into something creative and ultimately beneficial for our software. -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal