From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Prefer Mercurial instead of git Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2014 14:56:24 +0100 Message-ID: <87d2k6ilbr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> References: <1388785952.11337.16.camel@Iris> <874n5k12ft.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <1388841220.11337.21.camel@Iris> <87bnzrzuzp.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <1388846441.11337.25.camel@Iris> <8738l2k4hh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1388930455 31891 80.91.229.3 (5 Jan 2014 14:00:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2014 14:00:55 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Jordi =?iso-8859-1?Q?Guti=E9rrez?= Hermoso , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jan 05 15:01:02 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1VzoG7-0005Cy-NF for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 05 Jan 2014 15:00:55 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:58042 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VzoG7-0005Z1-7C for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 05 Jan 2014 09:00:55 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:51266) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VzoG2-0005Xc-LE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 05 Jan 2014 09:00:51 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VzoG1-0001LS-DF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 05 Jan 2014 09:00:50 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:40859) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VzoG1-0001LF-2n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 05 Jan 2014 09:00:49 -0500 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48033 helo=lola) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VzoG0-00042c-Jn; Sun, 05 Jan 2014 09:00:48 -0500 Original-Received: by lola (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8ACEBE08A9; Sun, 5 Jan 2014 14:56:24 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: <8738l2k4hh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> (Stephen J. Turnbull's message of "Sun, 05 Jan 2014 21:17:14 +0900") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:167364 Archived-At: "Stephen J. Turnbull" writes: > Jordi Guti=E9rrez Hermoso writes: > > > I don't think Stephen's a particular expert in this > > I don't either. But since I'm not an expert, why listen to me? > Listen to Barry Warsaw and Karl Fogel, who invited me to coauthor, > instead: > > http://www.python.org/doc/peps/pep-0374/ > http://www.emacswiki.org/BzrForEmacsDevs > > And to get David K to recommend me given how often we've been at each > others' throats Locking horns. Different thing. > over the decades is a pretty good trick, one I'm proud of. > Nevertheless, as ESR and DAK have been at pains to point out, the > problem with Mercurial, like the problem with Bazaar, isn't technical. > > The problem is that Mercurial isn't git. Git definitely is the leader > now. Git is "cool". Git is more flexible (neither Mercurial nor > Bazaar can support workflows that use colocated branches heavily). > Git has more growth potential: new techniques for manipulating DAGs > are developed in and for git. (They can't be developed *in* Mercurial > or Bazaar command language, you have to go to Python level to develop > useful new features.) Mercurial's supporting applications don't seem > to improve as quickly (at least, not those distributed with Mercurial, > cf. gitk vs. hg view). So git is clearly winning the popularity > contest, both in general and on emacs-devel. There is actually another problem here: with regard to Software Freedom, Git is in the "good enough" category. People are comfortable using it. And that's something which, in the big order of things, we should consider as a win. However, services like Github try locking people into their proprietary services. And are succeeding. The software Github runs on is proprietary, and the usage conditions are pretty onerous. Yes, one can pull repositories from them, but the entire other workflow they offer to users is locked down. Of course, it is the Facebook effect at work again: if you build a _business_ model around gratis services, your product is not the service, but the users. The tool Git itself does not care what it is used for, and Git upstream is also not overly interested as long as the conditions on Git itself are kept. The Git universe is unlike the Windows universe: it does not strongly prefer proprietary thinking and workflows. And yet we do try to bring the value of freedom also to Windows users, like when providing Emacs. I think there is more at stake by turning the back on Git. It is too important as a free tool to let the proprietary vendors determine the directions how "everybody" is going to use it, under their control, with their ultimate weapon: convenience. If we don't offer answers of our own, we forfeit the game. There are games which are loaded against us anyway, where there is little point in playing to lose. But this one's right at our door. --=20 David Kastrup