From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk (Phillip Lord) Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Development suggestions from an ENSIME developer Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 16:47:29 +0100 Message-ID: <87d1m5vfn2.fsf@russet.org.uk> References: <87wpke3kdj.fsf@russet.org.uk> <83h9biyek4.fsf@gnu.org> <877fce3flr.fsf@russet.org.uk> <83d1m6xint.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1469202507 28108 80.91.229.3 (22 Jul 2016 15:48:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 15:48:27 +0000 (UTC) Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Jul 22 17:48:17 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1bQcgQ-0004ot-PA for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 22 Jul 2016 17:48:14 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:48016 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bQcgP-0000gx-PU for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 22 Jul 2016 11:48:13 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:42481) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bQcfp-0000gp-7n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 22 Jul 2016 11:47:38 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bQcfo-0007zF-9V for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 22 Jul 2016 11:47:37 -0400 Original-Received: from cloud103.planethippo.com ([31.216.48.48]:44647) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bQcfj-0007wR-Cg; Fri, 22 Jul 2016 11:47:31 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=russet.org.uk; s=default; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID: In-Reply-To:Date:References:Subject:Cc:To:From; bh=/XpZuwP+sPOfzESNJ6sb5UJI6Z14z+AZe8sJxbyuRUw=; b=XTFvzs69yyz/axrXabT3S1QUtZ IDo6KNNIEFwk0BSeUARvOnXWn0Seyxb1JTQItYRUPee2Lon6fdXy5D2yHpm/vmdHq47/v73QnZQhg D8+NQp5snqKZ/Wts/AZLRaSlGZs1mueSktuxAr+YtISHdh5PVIU0etqi6JyU9KSw3fZq1Sp9borED J/xsi6bSLeWl3kMnCH2aTFYlg6KWGltuDmOHEKv9Ymqr++uQdpXBhH/DzhYdHA2+3ft3svDZfafaA YbZYo+KZE883u8Vhy/N8dUG25uvViHkS1z2zpJbBlm1R3421u2UEKrK7zrLyhIC2PzDeW9B7Erf+h 31wqVjng==; Original-Received: from janus-nat-128-240-225-60.ncl.ac.uk ([128.240.225.60]:17280 helo=russet.org.uk) by cloud103.planethippo.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.86_1) (envelope-from ) id 1bQcfi-0041k7-6L; Fri, 22 Jul 2016 16:47:30 +0100 In-Reply-To: <83d1m6xint.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 22 Jul 2016 09:59:18 +0300") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.95 (gnu/linux) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - cloud103.planethippo.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnu.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - russet.org.uk X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: cloud103.planethippo.com: authenticated_id: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk X-Authenticated-Sender: cloud103.planethippo.com: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 31.216.48.48 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:206041 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> And I can only give you anecdotal evidence that it will make things >> better after adoption. > > The number of manual actions one needs to do when processing a patch > can be counted, and the counts can be compared. The "normal" speed of > each operation can also be measured. So I see no issues of coming up > with a more-or-less objective assessment of the proposed workflow vs > the existing one. > > My problem is with having to learn a new system just because it's > considered (or even is) "newer" or "more shiny" or presents a prettier > graphics than the old one. These alone are IMO not enough to justify > the effort of learning yet another tool. All this is true. But a lot of the costs are about discoverabillity, learnability, and so forth. A "how many keys do I need to press" will not cover this. >> > Also, I think the solution should support text-mode browsers, such as >> > Lynx or Emacs's eww on TTY frames. IOW, anything that requires GUI >> > and won't work otherwise is probably out of question to begin with. >> > (This requirement is not for me personally.) >> >> If that is a hard requirement, then I think we are not going to get much >> further with a web 2.0 program. The best option is going to be somewhere >> to host clones for developers, and then use debbugs. >> >> But, it really is a hard requirement. > > I don't know if this is a hard requirement, it isn't mine. I don't > use Lynx. I do use Emacs on a TTY, for remotely accessing other > machines, and I do sometimes need to be able to fix bugs and commit > changes from such a remote session. So a solution that can be > reasonably used from a TTY frame in Emacs or from a shell prompt will > be welcome. > > Also, if a Web interface is really required for all the proposed > alternatives, then it means I'll have to leave Emacs and fire up a Web > browser, right? Because EWW, as good as it is (and it is good), is > still not up to that level, is it? Yes, probably. FWIW, in my use of github (which I realise is not an option here, not am I advocating it), I use a combination of the web interface and Emacs. I create PRs on the web, follow discussion in Gnus, and update, squash and manipulate in Emacs. When recieving PRs I normally use the web to view and do the merge. Phil