From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Mark Oteiza Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [PATCH] Fixing package-initialize, adding early init file Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2017 17:23:22 -0400 Message-ID: <87d16exyk5.fsf@udel.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1506374625 6769 195.159.176.226 (25 Sep 2017 21:23:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2017 21:23:45 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.0.60 (gnu/linux) Cc: jwiegley@gmail.com, Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Radon Rosborough Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 25 23:23:41 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dwaqg-0000sr-Dh for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 25 Sep 2017 23:23:30 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44354 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dwaqn-0007XZ-Pm for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 25 Sep 2017 17:23:37 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:41500) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dwaqh-0007XR-KL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 25 Sep 2017 17:23:32 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dwaqc-0007cz-Mj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 25 Sep 2017 17:23:31 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-qt0-x22c.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::22c]:51139) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dwaqc-0007c1-EO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 25 Sep 2017 17:23:26 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-qt0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id f15so8409727qtf.7 for ; Mon, 25 Sep 2017 14:23:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=udel-edu.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version; bh=6F6EgB4xgVw2gBresRHl/aJASXz/kb3nMq9UGrs325A=; b=zMTkRpQS4eth82IgVAPJzAXS8o+UqM4lUjfirCNyK6q3PiXJesK83xdDayuKSo0JBu JHIbcGj3gZatxLNS+yZQOtzNVF5s1WfaJ2xzN9ZVrbyBdj07I/ALcGdvB0j9RCksDlG/ agzo74cXYABjxpsTc5L7ImI45Qp7XMq76qyBAY3/+48vBUGk+mKhAY7rCMtRqUc651Ue VAl50deR2lDJ5W5EXwPXybpbZnMPP1NZyZalx7q7km2hfGwvdchkm3vUtIvO6qDnWKyo g/cPLd5k+3MQf2STCuTDdCAwiaUs9HBtqIEcekgWD4T/rTisrjQgu/LvaZxyDZ+Tumo8 P3XA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=6F6EgB4xgVw2gBresRHl/aJASXz/kb3nMq9UGrs325A=; b=V5JKbunQRDrMpylyLcbYuIG5n+wDaamLMazM5BsTKtFf1emPumV90c8K6xDvyyU4/L zhaIGuWqOTsmeOx6m36IkxN09pLRA063wDegvIvdJhXaM8suRpeXIqbxKDiTsO7C3pE7 ZCtzaCcycRMG6buj3d0gD+eXjhbc4QHSmxvQ7HJcSQouO15dj6pq90UPEWWyX654VrIr vtxHh7sO7xWLdiTry2OQU1eGAUdZXjOKtaxmzZTR2ih0Y72FbBIjZJrTx8G6p2L+iDmK lFCsHRPhH+fJAKpnDIP0jawYQY5QanjDN6SdSz8RiLjPMCo2bN3d0wZB/bq1jgVBpI80 5gdA== X-Gm-Message-State: AHPjjUiYY/NFu+/va7YmbdMgU/87YGK31x6GyfRRtm0LeqrMwMgf8c4m DuDbaQ1LkzNoBsTivB8b3GVJim2ND5g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AOwi7QAb3zIYen0YPOHf0uSEaHDt7WM1F/A9BcWXCflHMZWD5FLqNoYwwH4NslnHIadBgXKbcy0q5Q== X-Received: by 10.200.54.3 with SMTP id m3mr12439802qtb.195.1506374604093; Mon, 25 Sep 2017 14:23:24 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from logos (pool-173-67-36-61.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net. [173.67.36.61]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h19sm5598527qke.29.2017.09.25.14.23.22 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Mon, 25 Sep 2017 14:23:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: (Radon Rosborough's message of "Mon, 25 Sep 2017 12:38:18 -0700") X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::22c X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:218784 Archived-At: Radon Rosborough writes: >> This seems like a lot of changes that add new complications to the >> startup of Emacs. Since I don't have time just now to review those >> 150 messages, may I please ask for an executive summary to motivate >> this change? > > You could read [1] for an explanation of what the problem is, and [2] > for a list of the different ways people have proposed to solve it. But > I will summarize again: > > * Currently, Emacs modifies the init-file to add (package-initialize) > to it when Emacs starts. This has many disadvantages [1] which I'm > not going to rehash here. > * There are many proposals [2] on how to make package.el work out of > the box without requiring Emacs to modify the init-file. These all > have practical disadvantages, except for the proposal to add an > early init file, which solves the package.el problem I haven't seen one place where the problem_s_ involved have been clearly articulated, and still this patch does not improve any of the places where user facing documentation was lacking in the first place, and still requires the user to not only understand the forms that must be in an init file, but now there is one more init file for the user to manage. The whole discussion and push for a "solution" is predicated on users who can't be bothered to do things correctly _not_ having to do any configuration. This patch does not improve things in this regard, and frankly I don't see that predicate as a good one for devising a solution. At least it explains how we ended up with package--ensure-init-file. > with > essentially no disadvantages, and furthermore solves several other > problems at the same time (for example, people having no way to > disable the menu bar before it is initialized the first time). > > You can disagree with the above two points, but they were the outcome > of the aforementioned 150 emails, and everybody seems to agree that > this is the best approach. The only difficulty is actually making the > relevant changes to startup.el, which are honestly pretty small in the > grand scheme of things. I suppose it's time I pipe up and indicate I vehemently oppose this change. AIUI it still breaks existing config of package-archives, package-load-list, etc, which is something the incumbent solution also breaks. The only proposal I can support at this time is reverting the incumbent solution, yet none from the maintainership is willing to entertain the idea. >> new complications > > The only new code is to load an additional init-file. It's definitely > a new complication, but I don't think it's that bad. I think adding another init file is unacceptable.