From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: "Why is emacs so square?" Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 14:39:44 +0800 Message-ID: <87d084htcf.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <863691n4xl.wl-me@enzu.ru> <86blno9yle.wl-me@enzu.ru> <87d0845msg.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h7xgjasw.fsf@yahoo.com> <0B01B576-3DC7-4FAE-8010-C9B5CB6BA024@icloud.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="15014"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: ndame , Ahmed Khanzada , Stefan Kangas , Joseph Garvin , Richard Stallman , Emacs developers , Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams To: =?utf-8?B?7KGw7ISx67mI?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Apr 19 08:40:44 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ3dE-0003ow-Gd for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 08:40:44 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38246 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ3dD-0006Z1-IQ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 02:40:43 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:41430) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ3cQ-0005ub-TE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 02:39:55 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ3cQ-0005Kf-CP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 02:39:54 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic306-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.189.82]:35660) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ3cP-0005Gw-Ux for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 02:39:54 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1587278391; bh=yc7cZgda66T3lwzb0aWGk4Fd8JY+JUXBN132Ary9wOQ=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=Aes+IYn3DYr4ifoownw0jutP3iYRtEGYh7PwSA7K0qpenU40agwSSWHlRjF4dRNOEnT4A9GFhbxthz6b0DkjHWTaBXinY0+VNrs8vRV18ZB3FHxY77gIbKrD4QW+lK34uWu107L2ln5QSn4ZWnlT6mEH3/yPmMrXHhDNnkDePoru1gLiRztv6QdrJyvQkhlIk49KQGwgQHrGoYYczGVFChll/vwDmisyw29uTECvzOQIiF6N8RFZ6s+YBP00SrepMZdhx1x5Pxp6Y6DvITDOWMIMyYp+wA06oFek4hMhHbhDIvPoILydTCzzQQfPUWJ8/wArKTAzkwHLqyBciG994A== X-YMail-OSG: e3v.gXcVM1miCOZKQhk5iTjglTeV8n7aNRcIMr5ab6C0EkDIj5Ct_9fomA9cHck FX_Vj8NgKff6qBkPdhAcC0c6.rDzljqvTkeySUkx5Ah_WUu_wt9kHapkhumH5BetkMRQEl7tUgRy h2gZbKpLZKpBqedJNkoU4AYi5xUXN_92wEjTHOC3fYl62I2wmXf7zBciKoH8obrSHPxHseS0WVsx 1aCNbr9bZ9w8Irpha0SAsv.GpJgw_aNDCk5LR140wpGhu2gK3F8kiUVF.WUFuRzOEAESWdYgSotr 2Nf.m4DXJDRe5zwSfJSJ1jN3kIoHkhgIR6498br1tcbzQ3atpGK0m5E4k2vXA2RouIFMB_Fa67pS eDKWEuUM3DICPIr_vEiMQVHuz2FLxwl0PU0BY_PVUum05xUTYeLWJSESNYqDm.2yYnSUnrftUKhw 45LZFJJxwnDxohrfUBKrFYKG4TPMXCVOW8TL5rl1PZv5C6e9bM.f1Ujpc_O0szucK.2pVSpCoiQh tboEOdLnqQhV7enwIHA3jcgNWQsBYcZQpjwnetJuAiDFzh.4HTNpfVBa4rbkBe5c3eMIhL.pFeDk fYhjBuSK.TmeLWkbIxFkwb6AUWeSmtntbOf5yGQgsVkjt1IN9qCqLcRxfs.4FKa9bur7vSKiQEEq WtLO_gbhqYDCETU8wAgPfiK.xIwSUqwoSZF7Qx2cxIcuRSOBoQ.SBLgrgjpTn6RONwwI1gzlO2an vRM1iGJefw_5OTrzUWZ48OAlSoBNV8LMabQLdzVjy_YJje_JWmn.9NdBV4OaU9.GvrRK1sznsOa8 PTC7EhTHNJysDBXRqVDUQF.5TdkiRvDU9PqUHiwm1Y Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic306.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 06:39:51 +0000 Original-Received: by smtp414.mail.sg3.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 256943589a97f740950aa2a2d8f3f20b; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 06:39:49 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <0B01B576-3DC7-4FAE-8010-C9B5CB6BA024@icloud.com> (=?utf-8?B?IuyhsOyEseu5iCIncw==?= message of "Sun, 19 Apr 2020 15:32:40 +0900") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15651 hermes Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.189.82; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic306-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Linux 3.1-3.10 X-Received-From: 66.163.189.82 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247277 Archived-At: =EC=A1=B0=EC=84=B1=EB=B9=88 writes: > Skimming the Emacs Lisp intro doesn=E2=80=99t make one reasonably profici= ent in > programming Emacs packages though. For one to understand how Emacs works > (with it=E2=80=99s obscure naming scheme like windows), one has to jump a= lot of > hoops, and I can guarantee that one who is familiar with Algol-family > languages can pick up the VSCode API much faster than picking up Lisp, > Emacs, and the Emacs API. This is what gets interesting: Emacs Lisp is a language in it's own right, and the "Emacs API" is the Emacs Lisp language. Emacs Lisp is also a rather small and simple language. You don't have to pick up "Lisp", or the Emacs "API", you only pick up Emacs Lisp. > But the default Emacs doesn=E2=80=99t have that, and that=E2=80=99s the p= roblem. > Which means that, for one to have nice OOTB experiences, one has to have > a really good reason to use Emacs (like learning Common Lisp), then google > how to configure Emacs, then encounter Spacemacs without knowing anything > about evil or helm or ivy. And proficient Emacs users usually recommend > not using a starter kit in the internet. (That=E2=80=99s my experience on= trying > to use Emacs.) We could put a link to them somewhere, but that's something for RMS to deci= de. > I don=E2=80=99t think OP was saying that we should use Electron for Emacs= , but more > that due to using Electron, it gives the stability that Emacs doesn=E2=80= =99t give. > Maybe you=E2=80=99ve only used Emacs on Linux, but at least on macOS, Ema= cs glitches, > locks, and crashes very frequently, and that=E2=80=99s a non-starter for = a lot > of people. If it "glitches, crashes, locks", that's a bug, and instead of treating it as a fact, report it. Plus, I know a lot of people who use Emacs on macOS, and I even had to use Emacs on Windows a long time back, and Emacs has always been rather solid. The starter packs are also supposed to work well, and it might also be a problem with your own config. OTOH, Lisp code shouldn't be able to make Emacs crash (unless you're doing stuff like running invalid bytecode, or overflowing the GC stack), and if it does, it's also a bug that should be fixed.