From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ihor Radchenko Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 12:19:37 +0800 Message-ID: <87d02vk2ee.fsf@localhost> References: <20200906133719.cu6yaldvenxubcqq.ref@Ergus> <20200906133719.cu6yaldvenxubcqq@Ergus> <83lfhnnew7.fsf@gnu.org> <20200906163418.3p2wuygb4osm76wa@Ergus> <20200906203807.u237c3h22oxwtmba@Ergus> <87wo15adtj.fsf@rabkins.net> <87tuw8kirh.fsf@localhost> <8dbb5170-f7a7-4541-bd61-a007dbd4f8ff@default> <87r1rckf2z.fsf@localhost> <346e46b7-a431-449d-b7cb-b3be65537d70@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="28359"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: spacibba@aol.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Drew Adams , rms@gnu.org, Yoni Rabkin Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Sep 09 06:21:17 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kFrbg-0007HY-NO for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 06:21:16 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:43156 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFrbf-0004WL-Pb for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 00:21:15 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:47764) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFrb6-00040V-1l for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 00:20:40 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pg1-x52b.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::52b]:34845) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFrb3-0000rX-Ny; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 00:20:39 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pg1-x52b.google.com with SMTP id g29so1136633pgl.2; Tue, 08 Sep 2020 21:20:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :mime-version; bh=MMIDrLQTsaXAeUX6ymmN0+poTr0Idy7AkYtsRPN2X10=; b=hiGIWA8ijTMkAp3gq/cdFPLzVs/QkTSqb/GxG0A7tSoPL4a5jwT3KjXoLZyFEZlqPg 26Df7sVTEQ+w0f+Ddp+L1RTCTaeBNXZSgqnl3JvSnVZ5O1m/6RmtpH3WmQkWZnXvKOwL n0Fc13KbR1oT9tqUHbagG7JdrycUI35xOvUVUbXjHrN0NDFLvPqJFE/noNHmgkCvfSjN Bl5SqXLQHECkeMxPBxHo2SdMNNFs9STUXZXlp9NM0LOCeiPiOTs/033Eg82psWrmIBpw 0Yjv669KQbkoua2L+ONE7P6TrKyW5XnCjgepkKJTTWNnnOWf0FtCPg6XKikS1XKQYJXa 4ixQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:mime-version; bh=MMIDrLQTsaXAeUX6ymmN0+poTr0Idy7AkYtsRPN2X10=; b=RO6TsXMvPMnvFhjJBTmGP55rPXSAK9FZ1Fow2Wn3JfUv1Z2Rk3xC3hfM30c9U2eXQX yc1OT8+R2qq6lHmbMeK2F00xTH5OK2iTjJBRO2lL6hDzINEaiOgMjkdzKPNpo9MgSWD3 tLfUCoAm2vT13ahxtaRrPGb/wc6i/2x2zimMzhzvJEvzuJA2wdqtOur99DsSbn6GGbjJ V1afvDuiAmSIAZc2biBKudbC9vjcRzYfg1wX+ejB1eDQmPkEC0CgOjKCfqtwdSQSUhjz +QuN9cvQnJuc5qeWs6+osx/U2Lvyb6g69NyPyMlAPJhnigEl5tcoYDnJ1tuW85xkdaZN SgMw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530AJf33lADB6ZVZzB7yjQ5qAo2Kwr0x6NezuS3gGeqxL4x7sq1t 5QGnZpiR7/idxBIOAfc5ZRc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzh3HrRxWj0yPOrXSN5xvqL1ZnyL7mhjuaC2t9FlIOnwJDExiAWpJLGS9GR4tmLOJxKl4WBZw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:8bc2:b029:d0:cbe1:e709 with SMTP id r2-20020a1709028bc2b02900d0cbe1e709mr2244363plo.23.1599625235817; Tue, 08 Sep 2020 21:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from localhost ([104.250.131.79]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l24sm929172pff.20.2020.09.08.21.20.34 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 08 Sep 2020 21:20:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <346e46b7-a431-449d-b7cb-b3be65537d70@default> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::52b; envelope-from=yantar92@gmail.com; helo=mail-pg1-x52b.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:254844 Archived-At: > There's always room for improvement. And indeed, > the menus have improved in this way over time, to > be more accommodating to new users. > > Menus are an important way to discover features > and, yes, key bindings. They can be a gateway to > more "emacsy" behavior. Would it make sense to re-evaluate Xah Lee's suggestions about menu? http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/modernization_menu.html Best, Ihor Drew Adams writes: >> > Doesn't menu File > Open File do what you request, >> > by default? Likewise, other file operations, such >> > as File > Insert File, File > Save As, and File > >> > Open Directory. >> >> Hmm. You are right. I thought that the problem was with Emacs defaults, >> but it seems to be a problem with helm, which I asked to install at the >> very beginning - it appears to override the file dialogue. > > Thanks for confirming. > > In several cases, though it may not be systematic, > Emacs default behavior tries to present, by way of > menus, something closer to what new users might be > used to. Another example is Edit > Cut|Copy|Paste. > > CUA-mode is about keyboard-key (not menu) behavior. > And in general Emacs default key bindings are > closer to what most Emacs users use, as opposed to > what new users might be used to. > > There's always room for improvement. And indeed, > the menus have improved in this way over time, to > be more accommodating to new users. > > Menus are an important way to discover features > and, yes, key bindings. They can be a gateway to > more "emacsy" behavior. > ____ > > In terms of discovering with menus, and at the > same time seeing the power/utility of keyboard > key bindings (completion, in particular), there > is library La Carte. > > https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/LaCarte > > And vanilla Emacs has `tmm-menubar' (M-`).