From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Philip K." Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: "modern" colors Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2020 01:29:25 +0200 Message-ID: <87d02rc2p6.fsf@posteo.net> References: <87y2lkb6kb.fsf@gmail.com> <9A4FA038-CCFD-45DF-8B57-E348AFF951D9@gmail.com> <87sgbsb0eb.fsf@gmail.com> <20200909165723.kdnwicwvplmezusr@Ergus> <20200910102000.2t6tsju745xutg7u@Ergus> <20200910110832.ko66gqnqo4l664d6@Ergus> <20200911134225.zhnlq7cdhmu2iraj@Ergus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="22106"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.1 (gnu/linux) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Ergus Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 12 11:54:13 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kH2EW-0005cr-UY for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 12 Sep 2020 11:54:12 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35090 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kH2EW-0003HE-1f for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 12 Sep 2020 05:54:12 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:57810) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kH2Cj-00019t-DG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Sep 2020 05:52:21 -0400 Original-Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:45527) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kH2Ch-0002xY-AR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Sep 2020 05:52:21 -0400 Original-Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BAD2C2400FB for ; Sat, 12 Sep 2020 11:52:16 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1599904336; bh=TNzwg/UFSBK0Ar6MOgKdWJFrn0+qcmYM5PlGVpz828U=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=fdsDtrUet+9gA0nr1ypv4Yyzfe8Ktz5BqAE7xLcVvhXD5h62VensnGFOzDnbCtxza X53wM0WnDNudCnnFrPZbAAi9gqTqIz+rzI+2ZNj3FheeqtLgpSBcWtOtSxGB1jf5Ls RqmejZLqcQNaQjUhZJpwpKgjCEzZGj9fuWeTfLHIFEuii4KcSsm1v8f4jjCjeTQ1YT 6nu7Sw/0HrK50fBmZ3jF7LP+W/NqsfymS6CtvUSR0L5DP37+ss7SIV9Gf+FBmJCOuC QWcir85oEHWzUuEsSsYGnWm1LqoZy0XZEMEgUGl4icc01qm6ngGPC/uJ0FgPV9miPk Fud5V+YQaFd8A== Original-Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4BpSb41lltz9rxg for ; Sat, 12 Sep 2020 11:52:15 +0200 (CEST) Resent-From: philipk@posteo.net Resent-Date: 12 Sep 2020 11:52:14 +0200 Resent-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Draft-From: ("nntp+news.gmane.io:gmane.emacs.devel" 255168) Gcc: nnfolder+archive:sent.2020-09 In-Reply-To: <20200911134225.zhnlq7cdhmu2iraj@Ergus> (Ergus's message of "Fri, 11 Sep 2020 15:42:25 +0200") X-RMAIL-ATTRIBUTES: --E----- Resent-Message-Id: <4BpSb43MpDz9rxW@submission02.posteo.de> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.66; envelope-from=philipk@posteo.net; helo=mout02.posteo.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/12 04:32:45 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:255286 Archived-At: Ergus writes: >>In what way have the "fully redesigned the mode-line"? The link you >>provided has no mode-lines. >> > https://github.com/jonathanchu/emacs-powerline > https://github.com/TheBB/spaceline > https://github.com/domtronn/spaceline-all-the-icons.el > https://seagle0128.github.io/doom-modeline > https://www.spacemacs.org/ (there are pictures) If this is modern, I'd very much argue against modernizing. First of all, most of these changes are either non-functional or just changes for the sake of change. They also remind me of the prompts some people use in their shell, that use those modified fonts to create the illusion of pentagon-like shape. That's already existed for a few years, and from my experience, after reaching a critical-mass and it looses it novelty value, it will look even more outdated (or perhaps even "cringe") than what we have no. Think of those 3D, hyper-detail desktops that were cool 10-15 years ago. Or the skeuomorphism found on Apple operating systems. What use to be cool, fresh and new, was that only because it managed to make use of new technical capabilities, that previously limited the design (higher density displays, enough spare computational power to render excessive animations, etc.). These tendencies usually go too far, and eventually this excess is commonly understood. But until then, the movement is recognized as modern, and following it's style doesn't make sense for everyone. For a new programme, without an established user-base, appearances are a lot more important, because "first look" count. But established applications can suffer from it, as I often hear from MS Office users, who lament the frequent changes in the UI. While a change of theme or mode-line isn't that drastic, I think the analogy can be recognized. Secondly, design reflects mentality. One can say a lot about a person, by looking at their living room furniture. Most would consider VS Code or Atom to have modern UIs and designs, but I don't think that it could or should be disconnected from the UX. I'd argue: The UX or an "ideal" work flow in Emacs doesn't match that of VSC or Atom, and by reflecting that in the design, we don't stand to gain a modern UI, but "break" the UX. Emacs is different, and to a certain degree this should be reflected in the way it looks (which doesn't mean everything should stay the same). Maybe it would be better to aim for "Timeless", instead of "Modern". (I recognize that the argument is a bit flimsy, but I'm writing this around half past one in the morning, so mistakes are bound to happen.) -- Philip K.