From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs Survey: Toolbars Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 11:58:35 +0100 Message-ID: <87czz8n1gk.fsf@gnus.org> References: <87o8iv3ac3.fsf@gnus.org> <56d1484e-6f41-575f-0fbb-fd2bd99ab152@yandex.ru> <87eejqnlxk.fsf@gnus.org> <3156f8b8-1db1-1858-95c3-16d213c2353a@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="11882"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Dec 17 11:59:36 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kpr0Q-0002yK-0Q for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 17 Dec 2020 11:59:34 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:37954 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpr0P-0001AS-38 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 17 Dec 2020 05:59:33 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:39094) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpqzc-0000Rh-46 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 17 Dec 2020 05:58:44 -0500 Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([2a01:4f9:2b:f0f::2]:40040) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpqzZ-0001bo-SD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 17 Dec 2020 05:58:43 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=1C5wZIMilpbOQeVHrR/y03aor4wPbieeoYRDq4vU7E4=; b=Tt52P4WuT6WOzTEddRNUI1r4Lm awP7fAy1WJq3AP5ZI/3na+Cvgsk6Ojv4q2yVsybDCs7EYXPCTqtaX40i0Dq2R5zvDtze+Nau1G+Mj drSRcCZnHfx4iULcQRpyiQ+VUHQJZytvkwpIqO2yXWAY80rL8tNck11OLS/Uqq2yxxJA=; Original-Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kpqzU-0006Kl-UY; Thu, 17 Dec 2020 11:58:39 +0100 Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAElBMVEVCPDwuKShFPz9b VFSxqaX////gqtX5AAAAAWJLR0QF+G/pxwAAAAd0SU1FB+QMEQozLz5583AAAAGrSURBVDjLbZOB cQMhDAT1OAWgpAECDdiIDqD/mnIHGLAdzfzMP4tO4tCLeAmq6l2MTmKPEFREdAYXU47R8AQfnOj3 76XKzc7MMh7sEEkiX9UeUQL224wcJRpAqbU9lELpCVwy0a8fI2D1sUopAi/iUMVPrbugXCAAIUBK BxkgRwKBBoH6VZ0xzjSk7A0Ex8advQbO7noj+RN0tWTvwI8q8zOeGUsoD3Nn15fvtvb3U1O64WMT zD6kcDK0m4Aeeh0tTBA70BdweZoCjbtqPNvFVcMwXE0WXccvBR+4emal/OsXqEUunp3mR8Prs0g1 bu4BIHFbWbHiyVhfTpMpw9ouxYB52mIil/qLY5WjBdkpWNdpfWp32SnSx4A7AUCck5SeGSrQwCiW 1mBjiAfo4ay1ig6Gc734AHIrJDZuBa1ynee/vq0BtXHVvfhU81YM5L5AH0MSONGo5j4BpVrlEOxf bYPWMEcLeByzdKlONuCf45oVIKblAyC/TCnEBjca0f4Bpdkqjs42+CEpq/oGmlodYjTzBN6ajTrM PYFgaiyR2AvQdd/vwMttjW76A0yBl1sJYzr9AAAAJXRFWHRkYXRlOmNyZWF0ZQAyMDIwLTEyLTE3 VDEwOjUxOjQ3KzAwOjAwJWd+DQAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTptb2RpZnkAMjAyMC0xMi0xN1QxMDo1MTo0 NyswMDowMFQ6xrEAAAAASUVORK5CYII= X-Now-Playing: Pram's _Across The Meridian_: "Shimmer And Disappear" In-Reply-To: <3156f8b8-1db1-1858-95c3-16d213c2353a@yandex.ru> (Dmitry Gutov's message of "Wed, 16 Dec 2020 19:14:05 +0200") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a01:4f9:2b:f0f::2; envelope-from=larsi@gnus.org; helo=quimby.gnus.org X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:261095 Archived-At: Dmitry Gutov writes: >> I mean, look at the toolbar that happens when you "emacs -Q": You get an >> Emacs with a scratch buffer... with a "Save" icon. In a buffer that >> can't be saved. That's how much attention we've spent on toolbars in >> two decades. > > Well, it actually can be saved, as soon as you type something (C-x C-s > works), and it's one of the real usage patterns. The button doesn't > indicate that, though. Yeah, the save button stays grayed out and you can't click it, which I take to be an indication that this toolbar hasn't gotten a lot of love. I mean, it's the toolbar shown in "emacs -Q", and even that one is pretty nonsensical. > Maybe you're right. I checked back, and most contemporary text editors > don't have a toolbar like we do. > > Atom/Sublime/VS Code don't have this kind of editor toolbar. IDEA only > has specialized toolbars for, like, debugging. > > The recent versions of Kate (KDE editor) also seem to have removed > it. GNOME Builder only has a small number of buttons, and they are on > the title bar. Geany still has a toolbar, though. > > Even MS Word, while it has a toolbar for certain features, has moved > the basic edit buttons to the window titlebar and made them pretty > small. I think we should consider setting some standards for what should be in a toolbar, and normal editing commands shouldn't be there. That is, a toolbar should be for things that people want to click a lot, like "pause" in a media player, or navigation commands like "prev/next" in *Help*. I just had a peek at the toolbar in *Help* -- it includes things like "Save" and "Undo". No wonder most people disable the thing. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no