[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1527 bytes --] Hello, I’ve recently been chatting with Adrien Brochard (who ran the 2020 Emacs survey), and I’m pushing for a 2022 Emacs survey. Even with detailed telemetry (urgh) it can be hard to understand the range of experiences and opinions users have. As such, particularly once we have past surveys to reference and some consistent questions, I see quite a bit of value in helping: 1. Emacs developers, 2. Emacs package developers/maintainers, 3. The Emacs community itself better understand the Emacs community. Of course, this being a fiercely FOSS community, the situation with survey platforms leaves quite a bit to be desired. To resolve this issue, I spent some time last year writing a 100% FOSS, [survey framework] which is completely functional without any JS. I have attached some screenshots of it to this email. It would be good to maximise the utility of the survey to the three groups mentioned earlier. In this vein I hope some of you, emacs-devel, would be willing to provide some feedback on the survey :) Attached you may find the current draft survey questions, both as `survey-questions.org' file and the configuration file used by my survey framework, `survey.jl'. If you’d like, you can even try running the survey locally. Lastly, if any of you would like to chat about this over IRC you can find me as “tecosaur” on libera.chat, and @tecosaur:matrix.org over on Matrix. All the best, Timothy [survey framework] <https://github.com/tecosaur/emacs-survey> [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 5579 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: survey-questions.org --] [-- Type: application/vnd.lotus-organizer, Size: 10770 bytes --] [-- Attachment #3: survey.jl --] [-- Type: application/octet-stream, Size: 14386 bytes --] Survey( "Emacs User Survey — 2022", "Help the community have a better understanding of itself and its own diversity in Emacs usage. Discover and show how people are using this versatile tool for everything, from software engineering to academia and journalism. <br/><br/> This takes most people ?–? minutes to complete. <br/><br/> <b>Disclaimer:</b> This is currently just a draft based on the 2020 survey, the questions you see now will not neccesarily be in the final survey.", SurveyPart("Emacs Usage", MultiSelect(:emacs_tasks, "Which of the following activities do you use Emacs for?", ["Work", "Hobby projects", :other]), NumberInput(:emacs_years, "How many years have you been using Emacs for?", validators = v -> if v < 0 "Seriously? Are we supposed to believe you're just planning ahead?" elseif v > 45 "Oh really? 🤨" end), RadioSelect(:emacs_version, "Which version/fork of Emacs do you use?", ["29 (master)" => "29", "28", "27", "26", :other]), MultiSelect(:operating_system, "Which operating system to you use Emacs on?", ["GNU/Linux", "Windows", "MacOS", "BSD", :other]), MultiSelect(:emacs_mode, "How do you run Emacs?", ["Graphical Application (GUI)" => "GUI", "Terminal (TUI)" => "TUI", "Daemon/Client" => "daemon"]), RadioSelect(:keybindings, "Which keybindings do you use?", ["Default (Emacs)" => "Emacs", "Vim", "CUA", :other]), RadioSelect(:starter_kit, "Do you use a starter kit/configuration framework?", ["No, I have lightly configured vanilla Emacs" => "minimal vanilla", "No, I have an extensive, fully-custom configuration" => "maximal vanilla", "Doom Emacs", "Spacemacs", "Prelude", :other]), RadioSelect(:elisp, "What is your level of elisp proficiency?", ["No knowledge" => "none", "I can copy-paste and tweak some code" => "copy-paste", "I can write simple functions" => "simple functions", "Fairly proficient, I can/have written my own package." => "write package", "I maintain multiple packages" => "many packages"]), MultiSelect(:languages, "Which languages do you program (in Emacs) in?", ["Assembly", "C++", "C", "C#", "Clojure", "Erlang", "Go", "HTML/CSS", "Haskell", "Javascript", "Julia", "Java", "Lisp", "Python", "PHP", "Perl", "R", "Rust", "Ruby", "Shell scripting" => "Shell", "SQL", "Typescript", :other])), SurveyPart("First time questions", "All of these questions are <i>optional</i>. Answer these if you're doing the survey for the first time.", RadioSelect(:prior_editor, "Which editor did you use before you started using Emacs?", ["None", "Vim", "VS Code", "IntelliJ", "Atom", "Eclipse", "Nodepad++", :other], mandatory=false), TextArea(:emacs_strengths, "What do you think are Emacs' greatest strengths?", validators=[wordlimit(400), charlimit(6*400)], mandatory=false), TextArea(:emacs_dificulties, "Can you recall any difficulties you faced when initially learning Emacs?<br/>Please be as specific and concrete as your memories permit.", validators=[wordlimit(400), charlimit(6*400)], mandatory=false), RadioSelect(:emacs_introduction, "How were you introduced to Emacs?", ["Friend", "University", "Some part of the internet" => "Internet", :other], mandatory=false), MultiSelect(:emacs_motivations, "What features motivated you to initially try Emacs?", ["Extensibility", "Package/ecosystem", "Community", "Part of the GNU project / FSF"], mandatory=false)), SurveyPart("Packages", MultiSelect(:package_manager, "How do you manage third-party packages?", ["My framework/starter kit's default" => "framework default", "package.el (built-in)" => "package.el", "straight.el" => "straight.el", "use-package" => "use-package.el", "manual (git clone/download)" => "manual", "not sure", :other]), MultiSelect(:package_repositories, "Which package repositories do you use?", ["My framework/starter kit's default" => "framework default", "GNU ELPA" => "ELPA", "Melpa", "Melpa Stable", "Built from source (e.g. using straight)" => "Source", "not sure", :other]), TextArea(:favorite_packages, "Could you list some of your favourite packages? (comma-seperated)"; validators = [t -> if length(split(t, ',')) < 2 "Come on, surely you like at least two packages?" elseif length(split(t, ',')) > 10 "That's a lot of packages. Surely you can cut that down to a top 10?" end, wordlimit(30), charlimit(200)]), MultiSelect(:theme, # people can use a light and dark theme "Which theme do you use?", ["The default theme" => "default", "my own custom theme", "doom-one", "dracula", "gruvbox", "modus-operandi", "modus-vivendi", "nord", "solarized", "solarized-dark", "zenburn", :other]), MultiSelect(:org_usage, "Which use cases of Org Mode apply to your usage (if any)?", ["Note taking", "General document writing", "Task management", "Agenda", "Time tracking", "Personal knowledge database (org-roam)" => "org-roam", "Literate programing / notebooks (babel)" => "babel"], mandatory=false), RadioSelect(:magit_usage, "How often do you use Magit?", ["Frequently", "Rarely", "Never"]), RadioSelect(:tramp_usage, "How often do you use TRAMP?", ["Frequently", "Rarely", "Never"]), MultiSelect(:term_package, "Do you use a terminal emulator in Emacs?", ["No", "eshell", "shell", "term", "ansi-term", "vterm", :other]), RadioSelect(:email_package, "Do you use an Email client in Emacs?", ["No", "Gnus", "Mu4e", "notmuch", "Wanderlust", :other]), RadioSelect(:spell_package, "Do you use a spell checker in Emacs?", ["No", "My framework/starter kit's default" => "framework default", "flyspell", "spell-fu", :other]), RadioSelect(:undo_package, "Do you use an undo package in Emacs?", ["No", "My framework/starter kit's default" => "framework default", "undo-tree", "undo-fu", :other]), RadioSelect(:project_package, "Do you use an project management package in Emacs?", ["No", "My framework/starter kit's default" => "framework default", "project.el", "projectile", :other]), MultiSelect(:selection_package, "Do you use any selection packages?", ["No", "My framework/starter kit's default" => "framework default", "Helm", "Ivy", "Ido", "Icomplete", "Vertico", "Selectrum", "Marginalia", "Consult", :other])), SurveyPart("Contribution", RadioSelect(:emacs_contribution, "Have you ever contributed to Emacs or an ELPA package?", ["No", "Occasionaly", "Frequently"]), TextArea(:emacs_contribution_feedback, "Have you got any feedback on the Emacs/ELPA contribution process?", validators=[wordlimit(400), charlimit(6*400)], mandatory=false), RadioSelect(:melpa_contribution, "Have you ever contributed to a Melpa package?", ["No", "Occasionaly", "Frequently"]), RadioSelect(:isa_package_maintainer, "Do you maintain any Emacs packages?", ["Yes", "No"]), RadioSelect(:has_donated, "Have you ever contributed financially to Emacs development (via the FSF)", ["No", "Yes", "I would if I could donate to Emacs directly" => "Would directly", "I would like to, but cannot" => "Cannot"])), SurveyPart("Demographics (all questions are optional)", NumberInput(:respondent_age, "How old are you?", validators = n -> if n < 8 "My, you're advanced for you're age. <i>Suspisiously</i> advanced…" elseif n > 100 "Congratulations on becoming a centernarian! How about you get one of your grandchildren to do this survey instead?" end, mandatory=false), RadioSelect(:respondent_gender, "What is your gender?", ["Male", "Female", "Other"], mandatory=false), RadioSelect(:respondant_education, "What is the highest level of education you have completed?", ["High school" => "School", "Asosociate's Degree" => "Asosociates", "Bachelor's Degree" => "Bachelors", "Master's Degree" => "Masters", "PhD or equivalent" => "PhD"], mandatory=false), Dropdown(:respondant_nationality, "What is your nationality?", # taken from https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/nationalities/list-of-nationalities ["Afghan", "Albanian", "Algerian", "American", "Andorran", "Angolan", "Anguillan", "Antigua and Barbuda", "Argentine", "Armenian", "Australian", "Austrian", "Azerbaijani", "Bahamian", "Bahraini", "Bangladeshi", "Barbadian", "Belarusian", "Belgian", "Belizean", "Beninese", "Bermudian", "Bhutanese", "Bolivian", "Bosnia and Herzegovina", "Botswanan", "Brazilian", "British", "British Virgin Islander", "Bruneian", "Bulgarian", "Burkinan", "Burmese", "Burundian", "Cambodian", "Cameroonian", "Canadian", "Cape", "Verdean", "Cayman Islander", "Central", "African", "Chadian", "Chilean", "Chinese", "Colombian", "Comoran", "Congolese (Congo)", "Congolese (DRC)", "Cook Islander", "Costa", "Rican", "Croatian", "Cuban", "Cymraes", "Cymro", "Cypriot", "Czech", "Danish", "Djiboutian", "Dominican", "Dominican Republic citizen", "Dutch", "East Timorese", "Ecuadorean", "Egyptian", "Emirati", "English", "Equatorial", "Guinean", "Eritrean", "Estonian", "Ethiopian", "Faroese", "Fijian", "Filipino", "Finnish", "French", "Gabonese", "Gambian", "Georgian", "German", "Ghanaian", "Gibraltarian", "Greek", "Greenlandic", "Grenadian", "Guamanian", "Guatemalan", "Guinea-Bissau citizen", "Guinean", "Guyanese", "Haitian", "Honduran", "Hong", "Konger", "Hungarian", "Icelandic", "Indian", "Indonesian", "Iranian", "Iraqi", "Irish", "Israeli", "Italian", "Ivorian", "Jamaican", "Japanese", "Jordanian", "Kazakh", "Kenyan", "Kittitian", "Kiribati citizen", "Kosovan", "Kuwaiti", "Kyrgyz", "Lao", "Latvian", "Lebanese", "Liberian", "Libyan", "Liechtenstein citizen", "Lithuanian", "Luxembourger", "Macanese", "Macedonian", "Malagasy", "Malawian", "Malaysian", "Maldivian", "Malian", "Maltese", "Marshallese", "Martiniquais", "Mauritanian", "Mauritian", "Mexican", "Micronesian", "Moldovan", "Monegasque", "Mongolian", "Montenegrin", "Montserratian", "Moroccan", "Mosotho", "Mozambican", "Namibian", "Nauruan", "Nepalese", "New Zealander", "Nicaraguan", "Nigerian", "Nigerien", "Niuean", "North Korean", "Northern", "Irish", "Norwegian", "Omani", "Pakistani", "Palauan", "Palestinian", "Panamanian", "Papua", "New", "Guinean", "Paraguayan", "Peruvian", "Pitcairn Islander", "Polish", "Portuguese", "Prydeinig", "Puerto", "Rican", "Qatari", "Romanian", "Russian", "Rwandan", "Salvadorean", "Sammarinese", "Samoan", "Sao", "Tomean", "Saudi Arabian", "Scottish", "Senegalese", "Serbian", "Seychelles citizen", "Sierra", "Leonean", "Singaporean", "Slovak", "Slovenian", "Solomon Islander", "Somali", "South African", "South Korean", "South Sudanese", "Spanish", "Sri", "Lankan", "St Helenian", "St Lucian", "Stateless", "Sudanese", "Surinamese", "Swazi", "Swedish", "Swiss", "Syrian", "Taiwanese", "Tajik", "Tanzanian", "Thai", "Togolese", "Tongan", "Trinidadian", "Tristanian", "Tunisian", "Turkish", "Turkmen", "Turks and Caicos Islander", "Tuvaluan", "Ugandan", "Ukrainian", "Uruguayan", "Uzbek", "Vatican citizen", "Vanuatu citizen", "Venezuelan", "Vietnamese", "Vincentian", "Wallisian", "Welsh", "Yemeni", "Zambian", "Zimbabwean"], mandatory=false), RadioSelect(:respondent_ocupation, "Which industry do you work in?", ["Academia (Student)" => "Student", "Academia/Research" => "Research", "Education", "FinTech", "Healthcare", "Legal", "Manufacturing", "Software Development", "Telecom", :other], mandatory=false)), SurveyPart("Survey bookeeping", RadioSelect(:survey_prior, "Did you respond to the 2020 Emacs survey?", ["Yes", "No"]), RadioSelect(:survey_referrer, "How did you find out about this survey?", ["r/emacs", "Hacker News", "Direct message", "Discord", "Twitter", "Blog post", "Mailing list", "lobste.rs", "Telegram", "Emacs China", "IRC", :other]), RadioSelect(:survey_ux, "How well do you think this survey platform works?", ["Great", "Ok", "Not great"]), TextArea(:survey_feedback, "Do you have any general feedback on the survey?", validators=[wordlimit(200), charlimit(6*200)], mandatory=false))) [-- Attachment #4: emacs-survey-questions-start.png --] [-- Type: image/png, Size: 48826 bytes --] [-- Attachment #5: emacs-survey-landing-page.png --] [-- Type: image/png, Size: 77341 bytes --] [-- Attachment #6: emacs-survey-end-of-section.png --] [-- Type: image/png, Size: 51723 bytes --]
[செவ்வாய் மே 17, 2022] Timothy wrote:
Hello Timothy,
> Hello,
>
> I’ve recently been chatting with Adrien Brochard (who ran the 2020 Emacs survey), and I’m pushing for a 2022 Emacs
> survey.
>
> Even with detailed telemetry (urgh) it can be hard to understand the range of experiences and opinions users have. As such,
> particularly once we have past surveys to reference and some consistent questions, I see quite a bit of value in helping:
>
> 1 Emacs developers,
> 2 Emacs package developers/maintainers,
> 3 The Emacs community itself
>
> better understand the Emacs community.
>
> Of course, this being a fiercely FOSS community, the situation with survey platforms leaves quite a bit to be desired. To resolve
> this issue, I spent some time last year writing a 100% FOSS, survey framework which is completely functional without any JS.
> I have attached some screenshots of it to this email.
>
> It would be good to maximise the utility of the survey to the three groups mentioned earlier. In this vein I hope some of you,
> emacs-devel, would be willing to provide some feedback on the survey :)
>
> Attached you may find the current draft survey questions, both as survey-questions.org file and the configuration file used by
> my survey framework, survey.jl. If you’d like, you can even try running the survey locally.
>
> Lastly, if any of you would like to chat about this over IRC you can find me as “tecosaur” on libera.chat, and
> @tecosaur:matrix.org over on Matrix.
>
> All the best,
> Timothy
I just have a few comments on the questions,
Maybe we should have a "none" option in "** Which languages do you
program (in Emacs) in? :MultiSelect:Mandatory:"? I don't really use
Emacs to program except in Elisp and an occasional shell script or two.
I suspect there might be people who exclusively use it for
non-programming purposes.
A nit: in "** Do you use a terminal emulator in Emacs?
:MultiSelect:Mandatory:", you have shell and eshell as options but they
aren't terminal emulators are they?
"** Do you use a spell checker in Emacs? :RadioSelect:Mandatory:":
I think you should add ispell (M-$) to the list as well.
"** Do you use any selection packages? :MultiSelect:Mandatory:":
Marginalia is not a selection package, I think the same goes for
consult? Perhaps, users of those packages can comment on this.
> Of course, this being a fiercely FOSS community, the situation with survey > platforms leaves quite a bit to be desired. To resolve this issue, I spent some > time last year writing a 100% FOSS, [survey framework] which is completely > functional without any JS. I have attached some screenshots of it to this email. Nice! > validators = v -> if v < 0 > "Seriously? Are we supposed to believe you're just planning ahead?" Could also just be a wrap around. > MultiSelect(:emacs_mode, > "How do you run Emacs?", > ["Graphical Application (GUI)" => "GUI", > "Terminal (TUI)" => "TUI", > "Daemon/Client" => "daemon"]), You can use the daemon with GUI frames or with text frames (or both), so the 3 choices aren't mutually exclusive. > MultiSelect(:languages, > "Which languages do you program (in Emacs) in?", > ["Assembly", "C++", "C", "C#", "Clojure", > "Erlang", "Go", "HTML/CSS", "Haskell", "Javascript", > "Julia", "Java", "Lisp", "Python", "PHP", "Perl", > "R", "Rust", "Ruby", "Shell scripting" => "Shell", > "SQL", "Typescript", :other])), ELisp is strangely missing here. > SurveyPart("First time questions", > "All of these questions are <i>optional</i>. Answer these if you're doing the survey for the first time.", I think "taking" is the better verb here instead of "doing", tho hopefully some native anglophone can confirm. > SurveyPart("Packages", > MultiSelect(:package_manager, > "How do you manage third-party packages?", > ["My framework/starter kit's default" => "framework default", > "package.el (built-in)" => "package.el", > "straight.el" => "straight.el", > "use-package" => "use-package.el", > "manual (git clone/download)" => "manual", > "not sure", :other]), `use-package` looks out of place, since I don't think it offers any facilities to download/install/update/uninstall packages. > MultiSelect(:package_repositories, > "Which package repositories do you use?", > ["My framework/starter kit's default" => "framework default", > "GNU ELPA" => "ELPA", "Melpa", "Melpa Stable", > "Built from source (e.g. using straight)" => "Source", > "not sure", :other]), NonGNU ELPA? > MultiSelect(:theme, # people can use a light and dark theme > "Which theme do you use?", > ["The default theme" => "default", > "my own custom theme", > "doom-one", "dracula", "gruvbox", > "modus-operandi", "modus-vivendi", "nord", > "solarized", "solarized-dark", "zenburn", > :other]), The default theme is actually 2 themes (a dark one and a light one), so it would make more sense to split it into two (or otherwise to merge modus-operandi and modus-vivendi as well as solarized and solarized-dark). > RadioSelect(:melpa_contribution, > "Have you ever contributed to a Melpa package?", > ["No", "Occasionaly", "Frequently"]), [ BTW, last I checked it's spelled "MELPA" and not "Melpa". Don't know if the MELPA guys care about the difference, tho. ] Not sure what the question means, really: you can't contribute via MELPA, and most packages are on MELPA, so if you contributed to an ELisp package, that contribution probably found its way to MELPA even if you never heard of it. To a large extent the same holds for GNU ELPA, so maybe the distinction between "contributed to MELPA packages" vs "contributed to GNU ELPA packages" just doesn't make much sense. Without knowing what you're hoping to do with the result of that question it'shard to know what to do with it, but maybe you're rather interested to distinguish contributions via `M-x report-emacs-bug` or emacs-devel from contributions via things like merge requests on some forge? > RadioSelect(:has_donated, > "Have you ever contributed financially to Emacs development (via the FSF)", > ["No", > "Yes", > "I would if I could donate to Emacs directly" => "Would directly", > "I would like to, but cannot" => "Cannot"])), I think FSF membership does contribute (to a very small extent), so maybe you want to clarify whether you'd count this as a valid contribution or whether you're thinking of more significant/targeted contributions? > "Asosociate's Degree" => "Asosociates", I don't know that one. I'm tempted to say it's a typo for "Associates"? Stefan
Great to see another survey being organised! Looking through the questions I'd like to note the following: - Add "College" to who introduced someone to Emacs - Add NonGNU ELPA to the package repositories - The list of favourite packages should not mandatory - The built-in themes should be added to the theme list - The terminal emulator question should be rephrased "how do you use a shell within emacs", though this is nit-picking - Email clients should also have Rmail, Mew and MH - Perhaps a question on what spell checking programmes are used - I think adding vundo to the undo package list would be nice (points like these should also be presented with some explanation, because I can imagine a lot of users don't even know about these packages to begin with) - A general comment on the "My framework/starter kit's default". Will you be able to infer what they use, from the framework or is this just a vauge option? - Perhaps mention fido-mode in the "selection" package - Are the "gender" and "nationality" questions necessary? I can imagine that the former one can cause a lot of complaints (especially when there is no "I'd prefer not to say") option. - Are the "other" option plain text fields or a kind of "none of the above"?
> Of course, this being a fiercely FOSS community, the situation with survey > platforms leaves quite a bit to be desired. To resolve this issue, I spent > some time last year writing a 100% FOSS, survey framework which is > completely functional without any JS. I have attached some screenshots of > it to this email. > > It would be good to maximise the utility of the survey to the three groups > mentioned earlier. In this vein I hope some of you, emacs-devel, would be > willing to provide some feedback on the survey :) > > Attached you may find the current draft survey questions, both as > survey-questions.org file and the configuration file used by my survey > framework, survey.jl. Do you plan to add some Statistics? The combination of using DataFrames.jl, Query.jl, VegaLite.jl produces quite nice results. > Lastly, if any of you would like to chat about this over IRC you can find > me as “tecosaur” on libera.chat, and @tecosaur:matrix.org over on Matrix. > MultiSelect(:languages, > "Which languages do you program (in Emacs) in?", > ["Assembly", "C++", "C", "C#", "Clojure", > "Erlang", "Go", "HTML/CSS", "Haskell", "Javascript", Erlang but not Elixir?
Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
> I think "taking" is the better verb here instead of "doing", tho
> hopefully some native anglophone can confirm.
>
>> SurveyPart("Packages",
>> MultiSelect(:package_manager,
>> "How do you manage third-party packages?",
>> ["My framework/starter kit's default" => "framework default",
>> "package.el (built-in)" => "package.el",
>> "straight.el" => "straight.el",
>> "use-package" => "use-package.el",
>> "manual (git clone/download)" => "manual",
>> "not sure", :other]),
>
> `use-package` looks out of place, since I don't think it offers any
> facilities to download/install/update/uninstall packages.
Really? (use-package foobar :ensure t) will download and install the
foobar package. If it does that itself or tells package.el to do it
doesn't really matter.
FWIW, I'd select use-package in that question + package.el (for
deletion) and auto-package-update (missing!) for updates without having
to manually go through the *Packages* buffer.
Bye,
Tassilo
Timothy <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes:
> I’ve recently been chatting with Adrien Brochard (who ran
> the 2020 Emacs survey), and I’m pushing for a 2022 Emacs
> survey.
I was just looking the other day if there was an updated survey. :)
I think it would be great if you let people submit the
generated blank template of M-x report-emacs-bug that
includes all the configured features, enabled minor modes,
and features enabled in emacs and then generated statistics
based on that to find out what's popular.
I would not include Marginalia or Consult in the selection
packages responses.
--
Howard
>> `use-package` looks out of place, since I don't think it offers any >> facilities to download/install/update/uninstall packages. > Really? (use-package foobar :ensure t) will download and install the > foobar package. If it does that itself or tells package.el to do it > doesn't really matter. AFAIK it uses package.el for that, tho IIUC `straight.el` hooks into it so that it installs via `straight.el` for those who use that. In both cases, `use-package` delegates the job to an actual package manager rather than being a package manager itself. > FWIW, I'd select use-package in that question + package.el (for > deletion) and auto-package-update (missing!) for updates without having > to manually go through the *Packages* buffer. Then maybe we should distinguish between the "backend" (package.el here) and the UI layer on top of it (use-package, list-packages, auto-package-update, ...)? Stefan
I think it would be great if you let people submit the generated blank template from M-x report-emacs-bug and then generated statistics of the features and minor-modes that people enable. -- Howard
I was confused by the absence of "United States citizen", and had to scroll back to find "American".
Will Mengarini [2022-05-17 15:44:19] wrote:
> I was confused by the absence of "United States citizen",
> and had to scroll back to find "American".
Yeah, I was slightly bothered by that as well :-)
Stefan "(Canadian) American"
PS: The absence of support for multiple nationalities is also somewhat
annoying. Maybe it's more relevant (and less troublesome) to ask where
people currently live rather than worry about their nationalities.
On Tue, May 17, 2022 at 6:00 PM Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:
>
> PS: The absence of support for multiple nationalities is also somewhat
> annoying. Maybe it's more relevant (and less troublesome) to ask where
> people currently live rather than worry about their nationalities.
>
On that note, how about asking in terms of geographical regions? E.g.:
Where do you live?
- Africa
- Asia/Pacific (including the Indian Subcontinent)
- Europe
- North America
- South America
[செவ்வாய் மே 17, 2022] Will Mengarini wrote:
> I was confused by the absence of "United States citizen",
> and had to scroll back to find "American".
And on this note, Sri Lankan is broken into two checkboxes:
- [ ] Sri
- [ ] Lankan
Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
>> FWIW, I'd select use-package in that question + package.el (for
>> deletion) and auto-package-update (missing!) for updates without
>> having to manually go through the *Packages* buffer.
>
> Then maybe we should distinguish between the "backend" (package.el
> here) and the UI layer on top of it (use-package, list-packages,
> auto-package-update, ...)?
Yes, that makes sense. And probably the backend isn't even interesting
(or even known) from a user's POV.
Bye,
Tassilo
Corwin Brust <corwin@bru.st> writes:
> On Tue, May 17, 2022 at 6:00 PM Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:
>>
>> PS: The absence of support for multiple nationalities is also somewhat
>> annoying. Maybe it's more relevant (and less troublesome) to ask where
>> people currently live rather than worry about their nationalities.
>>
>
> On that note, how about asking in terms of geographical regions? E.g.:
>
> Where do you live?
> - Africa
> - Asia/Pacific (including the Indian Subcontinent)
> - Europe
> - North America
> - South America
I believe this is better than nationality, though a little more details
wouldn't be bad. If you group the middle east with New Zealand you
might as well not ask where people live at all. The question seems
interesting to get a rough idea of how popular Emacs is in different
parts of the world, the difference between two neighbouring countries
seems negligible.
In this context it might also be interesting to ask what kind of
Hardware is being used and how they perceive performance to be like. I
can imagine that more people in the western world will have access to
newer and faster hardware, on which grounds they would argue for this or
that feature to be enabled. The survey could help show if e.g. people
in the global south are bound to older hardware that would suffer from
computationally intensive features.
Another semi-unrelated question might be to estimate the popularity of
Emacs or other editors amongst other developers they know. I'd expect
less interesting or consistent information to result from this, but it
might also help draw a picture of what options people consider in what
parts of the world.
> I’m pushing for a 2022 Emacs survey. Always fun. Thanks! > provide some feedback on the survey > ** How do you manage third-party packages? Please include borg (https://github.com/emacscollective/borg). It may not have many users but then again, it may. Only one way to find out. > - [ ] Frequently > - [ ] Rarely > - [ ] Never That's like those scientific studies that only offer four levels of X to choose from, except here it's only three choices here. What about "All the time", to get at least to the level of detail, that that Covid study I took part in, had? Maybe also add "Occasionally" in the middle; the neutral option that is so often missing? [Is anyone aware of a study about whether leaving out a neural option leads to more polarized results? I.e., is mildly-pro+mildly-contra ~= mildly-pro+neutral+mildly-contra, or are respondents encouraged to pick the extremes (e.g., because both mild variants are seen as neutral in the absence of a fully neutral choice)?] > ** Do you have any general feedback on the survey? That's it? That wasn't many questions. They would need some work, but here are some I would be interested in: - How do you learn about new packages? - Do you try out new interesting packages immediately, or wait for them to mature? - Do you sometimes discover old package and use them instead of newer alternatives? - Do you research established alternatives when a new shiny package comes along? - Do you install the packages that you maintain yourself using package.el? (As opposed to manually adding the appropriate directory to the load-path.) - Do you publish your own packages on an *ELPA as soon as they are usable, or do let them mature a bit first? (Why the former?) - How often do you contribute new features to the packages you use? - How often do you contribute bugfixes to the packages you use? - How often do you ask the maintainers of the packages you use for help? - Where do you request help with packages that are part of GNU Emacs? - Where do you request help with packages that are not part of GNU Emacs? - If you use a starter-kit, who do you usually ask for help first; the starter-kit maintainers, the package maintainers, the wider community? - What do you do if your feature request or contribution is rejected? - What documentation do you wish package authors would more often provide? [] Comparison with alternatives [] Tutorials [] Design rational [] Info manual [] Screenshots [] Videos [] Concise introduction [] ... [ ] <input field>. Cheers, Jonas
> Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
>>> FWIW, I'd select use-package in that question + package.el (for
>>> deletion) and auto-package-update (missing!) for updates without
>>> having to manually go through the *Packages* buffer.
>> Then maybe we should distinguish between the "backend" (package.el
>> here) and the UI layer on top of it (use-package, list-packages,
>> auto-package-update, ...)?
> Yes, that makes sense. And probably the backend isn't even interesting
> (or even known) from a user's POV.
Those users who "don't care" or "don't know" about the backend are
almost guaranteed to use `package.el`.
Stefan
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2084 bytes --] On 17.05.2022 16:51, Timothy wrote: > > Hello, > > I’ve recently been chatting with Adrien Brochard (who ran the 2020 > Emacs survey), and I’m pushing for a 2022 Emacs survey. > > Even with detailed telemetry (urgh) it can be hard to understand the > range of experiences and opinions users have. As such, particularly > once we have past surveys to reference and some consistent questions, > I see quite a bit of value in helping: > > 1. Emacs developers, > 2. Emacs package developers/maintainers, > 3. The Emacs community itself > > better understand the Emacs community. > > Of course, this being a fiercely FOSS community, the situation with > survey platforms leaves quite a bit to be desired. To resolve this > issue, I spent some time last year writing a 100% FOSS, survey > framework <https://github.com/tecosaur/emacs-survey> which is > completely functional without any JS. I have attached some screenshots > of it to this email. > > It would be good to maximise the utility of the survey to the three > groups mentioned earlier. In this vein I hope some of you, > emacs-devel, would be willing to provide some feedback on the survey :) > > Attached you may find the current draft survey questions, both as > survey-questions.org file and the configuration file used by my survey > framework, survey.jl. If you’d like, you can even try running the > survey locally. > > Lastly, if any of you would like to chat about this over IRC you can > find me as “tecosaur” on libera.chat, and @tecosaur:matrix.org over on > Matrix. > > All the best, > *Timothy* > A few comments: - How were you introduced to Emacs? "Emacs recommended by collegue" is not an option, despite using Emacs for work being an option. - Survey seems programmer-centric. What about people using Emacs for non-programming purposes? I.e. as a text-editor? - Which Industry do you work in? Could use a creative/writing? Media/publishing? Etc. My 2 cents -- *Jostein Kjønigsen* jostein.kjønigsen.no <https://jostein.kjønigsen.no> jostein@kjonigsen.net - jostein@gmail.com [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 8043 bytes --]
Jonas Bernoulli <jonas@bernoul.li> writes:
>> ** Do you have any general feedback on the survey?
>
> That's it? That wasn't many questions.
>
> They would need some work, but here are some I would be interested in:
>
> - How do you learn about new packages?
> - Do you try out new interesting packages immediately, or wait for them
> to mature?
> - Do you sometimes discover old package and use them instead of newer
> alternatives?
> - Do you research established alternatives when a new shiny package
> comes along?
> - Do you install the packages that you maintain yourself using package.el?
> (As opposed to manually adding the appropriate directory to the load-path.)
> - Do you publish your own packages on an *ELPA as soon as they are
> usable, or do let them mature a bit first? (Why the former?)
> - How often do you contribute new features to the packages you use?
> - How often do you contribute bugfixes to the packages you use?
> - How often do you ask the maintainers of the packages you use for help?
> - Where do you request help with packages that are part of GNU Emacs?
> - Where do you request help with packages that are not part of GNU Emacs?
> - If you use a starter-kit, who do you usually ask for help first; the
> starter-kit maintainers, the package maintainers, the wider community?
> - What do you do if your feature request or contribution is rejected?
> - What documentation do you wish package authors would more often
> provide? [] Comparison with alternatives [] Tutorials [] Design
> rational [] Info manual [] Screenshots [] Videos [] Concise
> introduction [] ... [ ] <input field>.
Will is be possible to filter out questions, depending on previous
answers? I don't think the average user is interested in questions
about how they maintain Elisp code.
Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
>> Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
>>>> FWIW, I'd select use-package in that question + package.el (for
>>>> deletion) and auto-package-update (missing!) for updates without
>>>> having to manually go through the *Packages* buffer.
>>> Then maybe we should distinguish between the "backend" (package.el
>>> here) and the UI layer on top of it (use-package, list-packages,
>>> auto-package-update, ...)?
>> Yes, that makes sense. And probably the backend isn't even interesting
>> (or even known) from a user's POV.
>
> Those users who "don't care" or "don't know" about the backend are
> almost guaranteed to use `package.el`.
From what I hear, a lot of people also use their system's package
manager to install packages, that should be mentioned too.
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] Thanks for working on another Emacs survey. When you publish it, would you please use the term "free/libre software" rather than "FOSS"? We don't advocate "FOSS" -- see https://gnu.org/philosophy/floss-and-foss.html for why we don't. What we advocate is "free/libre software", See https://gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html for more explanation. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] the situation with survey > platforms leaves quite a bit to be desired. To resolve this issue, > I spent some time last year writing a 100% FOSS, [survey > framework] which is completely functional without any JS. I have > attached some screenshots of it to this email. It sounds like you've done some very useful work, and made a free program we should urge everyone to use. Would you like to make your survey platform a GNU package? -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Hi Timothy, thanks for giving us an opportunity to comment on the draft survey. > ** What features motivated you to initially try Emacs? :MultiSelect: Please add "other" as a response. I started using Emacs because it was the only way I knew of to get multiple windows on a 24x80 terminal, back in 1983 or 1984. > * Packages If you're going to make these questions mandatory, please allow for responses along the lines of "I don't use third-party packages". > ** Do you use an Email client in Emacs? :RadioSelect:Mandatory: Please add MH-E. Also, please make this MultiSelect. I use both MH-E and Gnus. > ** Do you maintain any Emacs packages? :RadioSelect:Mandatory: Please clarify the wording: does "packages" here refer only to third-party packages, or does it also include things that ship as part of Emacs? best regards, mike
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1092 bytes --] Hi Visuwesh, Thanks for the feedback! Visuwesh <visuweshm@gmail.com> writes: > Maybe we should have a “none” option in “** Which languages do > you program (in Emacs) in?” I’ve added “Prose (writing)”. > A nit: in “** Do you use a terminal emulator in Emacs? > :MultiSelect:Mandatory:”, you have shell and eshell as options but they > aren’t terminal emulators are they? You are correct, however they largely satisfy the same use case, and so I think it’s worth lumping them together. > “** Do you use a spell checker in Emacs? :RadioSelect:Mandatory:”: > I think you should add ispell (M-$) to the list as well. Added :) > “** Do you use any selection packages? :MultiSelect:Mandatory:”: > Marginalia is not a selection package, I think the same goes for > consult? Perhaps, users of those packages can comment on this. The wording over this question has been difficult. I think maginalia and consult fit into the ’selection process’, but I’m not 100% sure how this question should look. All the best, Timothy
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4206 bytes --] Hi Stefan, Thanks for all the feedback! Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes: >> validators = v -> if v < 0 > > Could also just be a wrap around. Perhaps, I’m inclined to leave it as “yelling at the user for doing something silly” though. >> MultiSelect(:emacs_mode, > > You can use the daemon with GUI frames or with text frames (or both), so > the 3 choices aren’t mutually exclusive. “MultiSelect” corresponds to a set of checkboxes, any number of which can be selected (as opposed to “RadioSelect”). So, these options aren’t mutually exclusive :) >> MultiSelect(:languages, > > ELisp is strangely missing here. How did I miss that!? Added. >> SurveyPart(“First time questions”, >> “All of these questions are <i>optional</i>. Answer these if you’re >> doing the survey for the first time.”, > > I think “taking” is the better verb here instead of “doing”, tho > hopefully some native anglophone can confirm. That sounds better to me. >> SurveyPart(“Packages”, > > `use-package` looks out of place, since I don’t think it offers any > facilities to download/install/update/uninstall packages. This seems to have been well-discussed in replies. I’m inclined to leave it in for now. >> MultiSelect(:package_repositories, > > NonGNU ELPA? Added. >> MultiSelect(:theme, # people can use a light and dark theme > > The default theme is actually 2 themes (a dark one and a light one), so > it would make more sense to split it into two (or otherwise to merge > modus-operandi and modus-vivendi as well as solarized and solarized-dark). Default has been split into -light and -dark variants. >> RadioSelect(:melpa_contribution, >> “Have you ever contributed to a Melpa package?”, >> [“No”, “Occasionaly”, “Frequently”]), > > [ BTW, last I checked it’s spelled “MELPA” and not “Melpa”. Don’t know > if the MELPA guys care about the difference, tho. ] > > Not sure what the question means, really: you can’t contribute via > MELPA, and most packages are on MELPA, so if you contributed to an ELisp > package, that contribution probably found its way to MELPA even if you > never heard of it. Mmm. I’ve changed this to the more general “contributed to an Emacs package?”. > To a large extent the same holds for GNU ELPA, so maybe the distinction > between “contributed to MELPA packages” vs “contributed to GNU ELPA > packages” just doesn’t make much sense. I think Emacs/ELPA are a little different with the ML process and FSF approval. > Without knowing what you’re hoping to do with the result of that > question it’s hard to know what to do with it, but maybe you’re rather > interested to distinguish contributions via `M-x report-emacs-bug` or > emacs-devel from contributions via things like merge requests on > some forge? My thinking here is that it could be interesting to see what the contributed with/without using a mailing list and getting FSF approval ratio (i.e. Emacs/ELPA) looks like, and particularly any shifts in it over time. >> RadioSelect(:has_donated, >> “Have you ever contributed financially to Emacs development (via the FSF)”, > > I think FSF membership does contribute (to a very small extent), so > maybe you want to clarify whether you’d count this as a valid > contribution or whether you’re thinking of more > significant/targeted contributions? The idea here is looking at financial contributions to Emacs, but I’m not sure what would make the most sense. Perhaps it would be worth asking about donations to package maintainers? I’d appreciate hearing other people’s thoughts on this. >> “Asosociate’s Degree” => “Asosociates”, > > I don’t know that one. I’m tempted to say it’s a typo for “Associates”? Neither do I, but apparently it’s a 2 year degree usually from a community college, common in the US. Yep, there’s a typo there. Fixed. All the best, Timothy
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3125 bytes --] Hi Philip, Thanks for the suggestions! Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> writes: > Great to see another survey being organised! Looking through the > questions I’d like to note the following: > > - Add “College” to who introduced someone to Emacs I’ve changed “University” to “University/College”. Let me know if you think this should be two separate options. > - Add NonGNU ELPA to the package repositories Done. > - The list of favourite packages should not mandatory Hmm, is it not reasonably to assume that everybody has at least a few packages they think look pretty good? Hmm, it doesn’t seem too bad if we were to just have a maximum. > - The built-in themes should be added to the theme list If we have all the built-in themes, the list gets a bit long. The approach I’m taking is trying to prioritise the most popular options, and leave the “other” box for everyone else. > - The terminal emulator question should be rephrased “how do you use a > shell within emacs”, though this is nit-picking Perhaps. I’m not sure on this. > - Email clients should also have Rmail, Mew and MH The previous survey indicated a small fraction of responses for these, is there a reason why you think the “other” box would not be good enough? > - Perhaps a question on what spell checking programmes are used It’s there, I think you might have missed it :) > - I think adding vundo to the undo package list would be nice Added! > (points like these should also be presented with some explanation, because I > can imagine a lot of users don’t even know about these packages to begin > with) Hmm. Not a bad idea. I won’t do this right now, but this is worth revisiting later. > - A general comment on the “My framework/starter kit’s default”. Will > you be able to infer what they use, from the framework or is this just > a vauge option? Since we ask earlier what framework/starter kit they’re using (if any), yes! In fact, I’m hoping this will be more informative/accurate in the case of users that haven’t changed the framework/starter kit default and aren’t exactly sure what they’re using. > - Perhaps mention fido-mode in the “selection” package Is it used enough to be lifted out of the “other” box? I don’t recall seeing it much in the 2020 survey results. > - Are the “gender” and “nationality” questions necessary? I can imagine > that the former one can cause a lot of complaints (especially when > there is no “I’d prefer not to say”) option. There’s no “I’d prefer not to say” option as the entire question is optional. If it seems like adding that is a good idea though, I’m happy to do so. The 2020 survey asked what people thought of adding demographic questions, and the response was (IIRC) overwhelmingly “sure, why not”. So these questions are a response to that. > - Are the “other” option plain text fields or a kind of “none of the above”? Text fields :) All the best, Timothy
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 577 bytes --] Hi Juri, Thanks for your thoughts! Juri Linkov <juri@linkov.net> writes: > Do you plan to add some Statistics? The combination of > using DataFrames.jl, Query.jl, VegaLite.jl produces quite nice results. I’m planning on making something like <https://tecosaur.com/public/EmacsSurveyAnalysis2020.html>, julia-generated of course ;) The survey data will also be made available as a CSV, JSON, and SQLite db, for anybody else interested to play with :) > > MultiSelect(:languages, > > Erlang but not Elixir? Added. All the best, Timothy
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 288 bytes --] Hi Will, > I was confused by the absence of “United States citizen”, > and had to scroll back to find “American”. I’ve now added “United States citizen” as an alias for “American”, hopefully that will sidestep any potential confusion. All the best, Timothy
Hi Jostein, Jostein Kjønigsen <jostein@secure.kjonigsen.net> writes: > A few comments: > > - How were you introduced to Emacs? "Emacs recommended by collegue" is > not an option, despite using Emacs for work being an option. Added :) > - Survey seems programmer-centric. What about people using Emacs for > non-programming purposes? I.e. as a text-editor? Do you have any suggestions for questions along those lines? > - Which Industry do you work in? Could use a creative/writing? > Media/publishing? Etc. Added and added. > My 2 cents Thanks, let me know if you have any more cents to add ;) All the best, Timothy.
Hi Jonas, Jonas Bernoulli <jonas@bernoul.li> writes: >> I’m pushing for a 2022 Emacs survey. > > Always fun. Thanks! I'm looking forward to seeing where this goes :) >> ** How do you manage third-party packages? > > Please include borg (https://github.com/emacscollective/borg). It may > not have many users but then again, it may. Only one way to find out. The "other" boxes are actually text fields in the survey, so people can actually just type "borg" in should they use it :) >> - [ ] Frequently >> - [ ] Rarely >> - [ ] Never > > That's like those scientific studies that only offer four levels of X to > choose from, except here it's only three choices here. What about "All > the time", to get at least to the level of detail, that that Covid study > I took part in, had? Maybe also add "Occasionally" in the middle; the > neutral option that is so often missing? > > [Is anyone aware of a study about whether leaving out a neural option > leads to more polarized results? I.e., is mildly-pro+mildly-contra ~= > mildly-pro+neutral+mildly-contra, or are respondents encouraged to > pick the extremes (e.g., because both mild variants are seen as neutral > in the absence of a fully neutral choice)?] This is a very good point, thanks for raising it! How about: Frequently, Often, Sometimes, Rarely, Never ? >> ** Do you have any general feedback on the survey? > > That's it? That wasn't many questions. I'm inclined to be conservative to maximise value/respondent time, but I think there's plenty of room for good suggestions. There's good reason why I called this a draft :) > They would need some work, but here are some I would be interested in: > > - How do you learn about new packages? > - Do you try out new interesting packages immediately, or wait for them > to mature? > - Do you sometimes discover old package and use them instead of newer > alternatives? > - Do you research established alternatives when a new shiny package > comes along? > - Do you install the packages that you maintain yourself using package.el? > (As opposed to manually adding the appropriate directory to the load-path.) > - Do you publish your own packages on an *ELPA as soon as they are > usable, or do let them mature a bit first? (Why the former?) > - How often do you contribute new features to the packages you use? > - How often do you contribute bugfixes to the packages you use? > - How often do you ask the maintainers of the packages you use for help? > - Where do you request help with packages that are part of GNU Emacs? > - Where do you request help with packages that are not part of GNU Emacs? > - If you use a starter-kit, who do you usually ask for help first; the > starter-kit maintainers, the package maintainers, the wider community? > - What do you do if your feature request or contribution is rejected? > - What documentation do you wish package authors would more often > provide? [] Comparison with alternatives [] Tutorials [] Design > rational [] Info manual [] Screenshots [] Videos [] Concise > introduction [] ... [ ] <input field>. I'll get a second opinion on this list, but I think a bunch of these questions look like very promising candidates for inclusion. Thanks for your thoughts! Timothy.
Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes: > Thanks for working on another Emacs survey. Thanks for the encouragement. I'd love to see this become a part of the community traditions (i.e. annual survey, results presented at emacs-conf). > When you publish it, would you please use the term "free/libre software" > rather than "FOSS"? We don't advocate "FOSS" -- see > https://gnu.org/philosophy/floss-and-foss.html for why we don't. > What we advocate is "free/libre software", > See https://gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html > for more explanation. I'll make sure that anywhere "FOSS" is mentioned "free/libre software" is used instead :) -- Timothy.
Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
> > the situation with survey
> > platforms leaves quite a bit to be desired. To resolve this issue,
> > I spent some time last year writing a 100% FOSS, [survey
> > framework] which is completely functional without any JS. I have
> > attached some screenshots of it to this email.
>
> It sounds like you've done some very useful work, and made a free
> program we should urge everyone to use.
>
> Would you like to make your survey platform a GNU package?
I like to think that what I've made could be broadly useful, but it
really is just made for the Emacs survey and I don't think I can spare
the time/effort to build it into a bigger project currently. So, while I
very much appreciate the interest I think I'll need to pass at this
point.
All the best,
Timothy.
Hi Mike, Mike Kupfer <mkupfer@alum.berkeley.edu> writes: > Hi Timothy, thanks for giving us an opportunity to comment on the draft > survey. Thank you for taking the time to have a look and write down your thoughts :) >> ** What features motivated you to initially try Emacs? :MultiSelect: > > Please add "other" as a response. I started using Emacs because it was > the only way I knew of to get multiple windows on a 24x80 terminal, back > in 1983 or 1984. Added. >> * Packages > > If you're going to make these questions mandatory, please allow for > responses along the lines of "I don't use third-party packages". Not a bad idea, but this will need a bit more thought. For instance, I currently have no support for conditional logic in the survey (i.e. if using packages answer these questions). >> ** Do you use an Email client in Emacs? :RadioSelect:Mandatory: > > Please add MH-E. > > Also, please make this MultiSelect. I use both MH-E and Gnus. You can write "MH-E, Gnus" in the other text field. >> ** Do you maintain any Emacs packages? :RadioSelect:Mandatory: > > Please clarify the wording: does "packages" here refer only to > third-party packages, or does it also include things that ship as part > of Emacs? I was only thinking of the former, but really I think both work. I'll revisit the wording. All the best, Timothy
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 152 bytes --] Hi Visuwesh, > And on this note, Sri Lankan is broken into two checkboxes: > > - [ ] Sri > - [ ] Lankan Thanks, fixed. All the best, Timothy
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2073 bytes --] Hi Philip, Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> writes: > Corwin Brust <corwin@bru.st> writes: >> On that note, how about asking in terms of geographical regions? E.g.: >> >> Where do you live? >> - Africa >> - Asia/Pacific (including the Indian Subcontinent) >> - Europe >> - North America >> - South America > > I believe this is better than nationality, though a little more details > wouldn’t be bad. If you group the middle east with New Zealand you > might as well not ask where people live at all. The question seems > interesting to get a rough idea of how popular Emacs is in different > parts of the world, the difference between two neighbouring countries > seems negligible. Nationalities is a bit finer that what I think we want, but similarly I find continents a bit too coarse. > In this context it might also be interesting to ask what kind of > Hardware is being used and how they perceive performance to be like. I > can imagine that more people in the western world will have access to > newer and faster hardware, on which grounds they would argue for this or > that feature to be enabled. The survey could help show if e.g. people > in the global south are bound to older hardware that would suffer from > computationally intensive features. Not a bad idea! How about a question along these lines: ┌──── │ RadioSelect(:emacs_performance, │ "How well does Emacs perform in your experience?", │ ["Very well, it's snappy", "Good but not great", │ "Alright", "Not well", "Poorly, it's slugish"]) └──── As well as say a question on how many years old the hardware is. > Another semi-unrelated question might be to estimate the popularity of > Emacs or other editors amongst other developers they know. I’d expect > less interesting or consistent information to result from this, but it > might also help draw a picture of what options people consider in what > parts of the world. Hmm, perhaps. I’m not sure here. All the best, Timothy
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 963 bytes --] Hi Stefan, > Will Mengarini [2022-05-17 Tue 15:44] wrote: >> I was confused by the absence of “United States citizen”, >> and had to scroll back to find “American”. > > Yeah, I was slightly bothered by that as well :-) (fixed) > Stefan “(Canadian) American” > > PS: The absence of support for multiple nationalities is also somewhat > annoying. Maybe it’s more relevant (and less troublesome) to ask where > people currently live rather than worry about their nationalities. I’m not sure what’s best here. Nationality feels like the right thing to me, but as you say some people could reasonably check two or even three of them. However, I’d consider a list of 237 checkboxes to be pretty bad (as opposed to the current single-select dropdown menu). Would it be unreasonable to ask for a primary nationality, if that works for 99% of people that may be good enough overall for us. All the best, Timothy
Hi Timothy, Lots of work goes into supporting various natural languages, e.g. there seems to be significant interest in indian languges lately. So shouldn't there be a question about what non-programming languages people use? I would suggest a text field, otherwise this can become unwieldy and, more importantly, non-inclusive. benny
Timothy <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes: > Hi Philip, > > Thanks for the suggestions! > > Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> writes: > >> Great to see another survey being organised! Looking through the >> questions I’d like to note the following: >> >> - Add “College” to who introduced someone to Emacs > > I’ve changed “University” to “University/College”. Let me know if you think this > should be two separate options. I don't think that it should be necessary. >> - Add NonGNU ELPA to the package repositories > > Done. > >> - The list of favourite packages should not mandatory > > Hmm, is it not reasonably to assume that everybody has at least a few packages > they think look pretty good? Hmm, it doesn’t seem too bad if we were to just > have a maximum. I think there are plenty of people who use Emacs without any major changes, just because it works for them. If they have been doing this for 20, 30 or even 40 years now they might have never bothered using packages as such, beyond maybe a script they got from a friend or wrote a few decades ago ^^ >> - The built-in themes should be added to the theme list > > If we have all the built-in themes, the list gets a bit long. The approach I’m > taking is trying to prioritise the most popular options, and leave the “other” > box for everyone else. Ok, fair enough. >> - The terminal emulator question should be rephrased “how do you use a >> shell within emacs”, though this is nit-picking > > Perhaps. I’m not sure on this. I think everyone should get what the question in. >> - Email clients should also have Rmail, Mew and MH > > The previous survey indicated a small fraction of responses for these, is there > a reason why you think the “other” box would not be good enough? In that case no, it should be fine. >> - Perhaps a question on what spell checking programmes are used > > It’s there, I think you might have missed it :) Nevermind then. >> - I think adding vundo to the undo package list would be nice > > Added! > >> (points like these should also be presented with some explanation, because I >> can imagine a lot of users don’t even know about these packages to begin >> with) > > Hmm. Not a bad idea. I won’t do this right now, but this is worth revisiting > later. > >> - A general comment on the “My framework/starter kit’s default”. Will >> you be able to infer what they use, from the framework or is this just >> a vauge option? > > Since we ask earlier what framework/starter kit they’re using (if any), yes! In > fact, I’m hoping this will be more informative/accurate in the case of users > that haven’t changed the framework/starter kit default and aren’t exactly sure > what they’re using. Great! >> - Perhaps mention fido-mode in the “selection” package > > Is it used enough to be lifted out of the “other” box? I don’t recall seeing it > much in the 2020 survey results. I believe Fido came out in 27.1, so there probably was not much time for people to start using it back then. >> - Are the “gender” and “nationality” questions necessary? I can imagine >> that the former one can cause a lot of complaints (especially when >> there is no “I’d prefer not to say”) option. > > There’s no “I’d prefer not to say” option as the entire question is optional. If > it seems like adding that is a good idea though, I’m happy to do so. > > The 2020 survey asked what people thought of adding demographic > questions, and the response was (IIRC) overwhelmingly “sure, why > not”. So these questions are a response to that. I missed the "Optional" annotation, in that case forget this comment too. >> - Are the “other” option plain text fields or a kind of “none of the above”? > > Text fields :) > > All the best, > Timothy
Timothy wrote: > Mike Kupfer <mkupfer@alum.berkeley.edu> writes: > >> * Packages > > > > If you're going to make these questions mandatory, please allow for > > responses along the lines of "I don't use third-party packages". > > Not a bad idea, but this will need a bit more thought. For instance, I > currently have no support for conditional logic in the survey (i.e. if > using packages answer these questions). Maybe add a "n/a" choice to the remaining questions in that section? > You can write "MH-E, Gnus" in the other text field. Yes, that works; thanks. (I didn't realize that "other" would have an associated text field.) cheers, mike
> I’m not sure what’s best here. Nationality feels like the right thing to me, but
> as you say some people could reasonably check two or even three of them.
> However, I’d consider a list of 237 checkboxes to be pretty bad (as opposed to
> the current single-select dropdown menu). Would it be unreasonable to ask for a
> primary nationality, if that works for 99% of people that may be good enough
> overall for us.
To be honest, I have no idea why we'd care about nationality. I can see
why we'd care about where our users reside (e.g. country of residence),
or maybe which is their mother's tongue, or the language they speak most
comfortably, but nationality? only as a proxy for some of those.
Stefan
I was wondering whether the average Emacs user, especially those who are non-developers would be able to easily understand the distinction between NonGNU ELPA and GNU ELPA and how it matters. Perhaps as a measure of increasing awareness and refreshing memories, it may be meaningful to include a link to this information.
Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> writes:
> - Add NonGNU ELPA to the package repositories
> - The list of favourite packages should not mandatory
sr@eml.cc writes: > I was wondering whether the average Emacs user, especially those who > are non-developers would be able to easily understand the distinction > between NonGNU ELPA and GNU ELPA and how it matters. Perhaps as a > measure of increasing awareness and refreshing memories, it may be > meaningful to include a link to this information. A link would certainly help, but the interesting demographic are those who are using a release prior to 28.1 who have manually decided to add NonGNU ELPA. I think that these people should know what they are doing. > Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> writes: > >> - Add NonGNU ELPA to the package repositories >> - The list of favourite packages should not mandatory
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > I'll make sure that anywhere "FOSS" is mentioned "free/libre software" > is used instead :) Thanks. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > Would you like to make your survey platform a GNU package? > I like to think that what I've made could be broadly useful, but it > really is just made for the Emacs survey and I don't think I can spare > the time/effort to build it into a bigger project currently. Is there anyone else who would like to take it further? -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1207 bytes --] Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > > Would you like to make your survey platform a GNU package? > > > I like to think that what I've made could be broadly useful, but it > > really is just made for the Emacs survey and I don't think I can spare > > the time/effort to build it into a bigger project currently. > > Is there anyone else who would like to take it further? > > -- > Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) > Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) > Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) > Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) > > > The software looks interesting. Can I get the source code? No, I don't have enough time to spend on it right now, but I may do that later if I have enough time, unless I forget about it. -- Akib Azmain Turja This message is signed by me with my GnuPG key. It's fingerprint is: 7001 8CE5 819F 17A3 BBA6 66AF E74F 0EFA 922A E7F5 [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 832 bytes --]
Akib Azmain Turja <akib@disroot.org> writes: > Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes: > >> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] >> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] >> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] >> >> > > Would you like to make your survey platform a GNU package? >> >> > I like to think that what I've made could be broadly useful, but it >> > really is just made for the Emacs survey and I don't think I can spare >> > the time/effort to build it into a bigger project currently. >> >> Is there anyone else who would like to take it further? >> >> -- >> Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) >> Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) >> Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) >> Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) >> >> >> > > The software looks interesting. Can I get the source code? No, I don't > have enough time to spend on it right now, but I may do that later if I > have enough time, unless I forget about it. Timothy gave this link in his first message: https://github.com/tecosaur/emacs-survey.
** Which of the following activities do you use Emacs for? :MultiSelect:Mandatory: - [ ] Work - [ ] Hobby projects - [ ] *other* The question is vague, rather general. Some people will say "work" for hobby projects. In my life I work what I like, and I make money too and on hobby projects there is some money, so is it work. For me that question is vague. It is interesting that the whole survey is not talking about "text editing" -- I understand, this is Emacs, but you should be talking about text editing so much more. Text editors are about text. In that above question, in the context of the question, I suggest that you expand it to following (while editing my English): ** Which of the following activities do you use Emacs for? :MultiSelect:Mandatory: - [ ] I use it as employee on my job - [ ] I use it in my personal business or company - [ ] I use it as student or pupil in school - [ ] I use it for scientific research - [ ] I use it for art related activities - [ ] I use it for my hobby projects - [ ] *other*, specify which: ________________ People do science which may not be necessarily "work" in their sense, as we speak of global Emacs users. Work is too general. Try to make it more specific, there is different work when somebody is employed, there is different nature of work when somebody is self-employed or businessman, students have their "works" too, scientific research is not necessarily the main "work" of the person, art is free to everybody, it could be considered work, it could be considered not, my point is that you should give more specifics, as that is what you wish to get with the survey. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/
** Which operating system to you use Emacs on? :MultiSelect:Mandatory: - [ ] GNU/Linux - [ ] Windows - [ ] MacOS - [ ] BSD - [ ] *other* I suggest adding Android based systems, as Emacs does work well in Termux and there is also graphical version which I personally don't use. ** Which operating system to you use Emacs on? :MultiSelect:Mandatory: - [ ] GNU/Linux - [ ] Android/Replicant/Lineage OS - [ ] Windows - [ ] MacOS - [ ] BSD - [ ] *other*, tell us which one: ___________________ -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/
I find this question very nice, good one. ** What is your level of elisp proficiency? :RadioSelect:Mandatory: - [ ] No knowledge - [ ] I can copy-paste and tweak some code - [ ] I can write simple functions - [ ] Fairly proficient, I can/have written my own package. - [ ] I maintain multiple packages -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/
** Which editor did you use before you started using Emacs? :RadioSelect: - [ ] None - [ ] Vim - [ ] VS Code - [ ] IntelliJ - [ ] Atom - [ ] Eclipse - [ ] Nodepad++ - [ ] *other* People use Emacs for years, you have forgotten to include "vi" -- Vim is rather the new "vi", those people using Emacs for 20+ years did not possibly use VS Code or IntelliJ or such new editors. You should include the old editors, and not just let it as a list of modern editors. I remember at that time there was elvis, there is "ed" which I still use today, including from within Emacs especially when I need to change single line on a remote server, there is "Notepad" on Windows which you forgot, that may be one of most used editors, "SimpleText" was default in Classic Mac OS, TeachText, TextEdit, XEDIT, you should include default editors from various OS-es and not just assume that people come from newer times as Emacs users, to know just those new editors. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/
** How were you introduced to Emacs? :RadioSelect: - [ ] Friend - [ ] University - [ ] Some part of the internet - [ ] *other* Emacs was mainly distributed in GNU/Linux distributions and before that on CD-ROMs by GNU. The main introduction to Emacs may not come from a friend, but it comes from the simple fact that it exists on GNU/Linux distribution. I was introduced to Emacs that way, it was in the Window Manager menus. Then there was book with the distribution, Emacs was in the book. There are many Emacs books, too. Thus, proposal is: ** How were you introduced to Emacs? :RadioSelect: - [ ] Within my GNU/Linux or other operating system distribution - [ ] Through books - [ ] Friend - [ ] University - [ ] Some part of the internet - [ ] *other* -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/
** What features motivated you to initially try Emacs? :MultiSelect: - [ ] Extensibility - [ ] Package/ecosystem - [ ] Community - [ ] Part of the GNU project / FSF You are forgetting the main feature of "text editing". The main reason why I have started using Emacs is because it was text editor and displayed in every Window Managers' menus. I could not possibly know of extensibility neither of packages, as I have not opened Emacs, I have clicked on it and started studying, only then I could find extensibility and packages. Without opening it, launching it, I would not know about the community neither, and I would not easily find out it is GNU project. Thus: ** What features motivated you to initially try Emacs? :MultiSelect: - [ ] Text editing - [ ] Extensibility - [ ] Package/ecosystem - [ ] Community - [ ] Part of the GNU project / FSF "Extensibility" is not understandable to many users, make a survey in simple English. Myself I do not understand how "package" would motivate me to use Emacs, but if you wish to say that, then please: Ecosystem https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#Ecosystem I would suggest this: ** What features motivated you to initially try Emacs? :MultiSelect: - [ ] Text editing - [ ] Extensibility - [ ] Particular Emacs package - [ ] Community talking about it - [ ] Part of the GNU project / FSF -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/
** Do you use an Email client in Emacs? :RadioSelect:Mandatory: - [ ] No - [ ] Gnus - [ ] Mu4e - [ ] notmuch - [ ] Wanderlust - [ ] *other* please include options: ** Do you use an Email client in Emacs? :RadioSelect:Mandatory: - [ ] No - [ ] Rmail (standard) - [ ] MH-E (built-in) - [ ] Gnus - [ ] Mu4e - [ ] notmuch - [ ] Wanderlust - [ ] Partially Emacs and external client - [ ] *other* That is because it is important to mention that Emacs may be used to send email, not just read email. I am sending emails from within Emacs, but often reading email by using Mutt either as external process in xterm or within vterm inside of Emacs. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/
Nationality may be multiple to many people. Instead, it is better if you ask for "Country where you are located" as what is of interest is "where are users" located but what is their nationality is rather personal question that does not matter for Emacs. By understanding where are users located, one may know which languages to develop for Emacs, or what to do, but with their nationality, what you want to do with it? -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/
** Which industry do you work in? :RadioSelect: - [ ] Academia (Student) - [ ] Academia/Research - [ ] Education - [ ] FinTech - [ ] Healthcare - [ ] Legal - [ ] Manufacturing - [ ] Software Development - [ ] Telecom - [ ] *other* That question of industry provides some defaults which are rather subjectively choosen, it is better that people enter industry themselves. Or make a proper list of industries, something like: https://www.bls.gov/iag/tgs/iag_index_alpha.htm https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/types-of-industry https://www.ibisworld.com/united-states/list-of-industries/ "Student" is not an industry. Academia is not a specific industry, you maybe wish to say "University" "Education" is not an industry, maybe "Education Services" is better. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/
** How did you find out about this survey? :RadioSelect:Mandatory: - [ ] r/emacs - [ ] Hacker News - [ ] Direct message - [ ] Discord - [ ] Twitter - [ ] Blog post - [ ] Mailing list - [ ] lobste.rs - [ ] Telegram - [ ] Emacs China - [ ] IRC - [ ] *other* I suggest that you include: - [ ] Fediverse (GNU Social, Mastodon, Pleroma) - [ ] XMPP Chat - [ ] Emacs Mailing List (to be more specific) - [ ] Friend -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/
Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> ** Which editor did you use before you started using Emacs? :RadioSelect:
> - [ ] None
> - [ ] Vim
> - [ ] VS Code
> - [ ] IntelliJ
> - [ ] Atom
> - [ ] Eclipse
> - [ ] Nodepad++
> - [ ] *other*
>
> People use Emacs for years, you have forgotten to include "vi" -- Vim
> is rather the new "vi", those people using Emacs for 20+ years did not
> possibly use VS Code or IntelliJ or such new editors.
>
> You should include the old editors, and not just let it as a list of
> modern editors.
>
> I remember at that time there was elvis, there is "ed" which I still
> use today, including from within Emacs especially when I need to
> change single line on a remote server, there is "Notepad" on Windows
> which you forgot, that may be one of most used editors, "SimpleText"
> was default in Classic Mac OS, TeachText, TextEdit, XEDIT, you should
> include default editors from various OS-es and not just assume that
> people come from newer times as Emacs users, to know just those new
> editors.
I think this has been mentioned already in this thread, the question is
what relevant information does the editor someone used 20+ years ago
give, especially considering that the "other" field is a text field.
The best I can think of would be an interesting infographic visualising
trends between how long someone has been using Emacs and what they used
prior to that.
* Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> [2022-05-23 11:06]: > > I remember at that time there was elvis, there is "ed" which I still > > use today, including from within Emacs especially when I need to > > change single line on a remote server, there is "Notepad" on Windows > > which you forgot, that may be one of most used editors, "SimpleText" > > was default in Classic Mac OS, TeachText, TextEdit, XEDIT, you should > > include default editors from various OS-es and not just assume that > > people come from newer times as Emacs users, to know just those new > > editors. > > I think this has been mentioned already in this thread, the question is > what relevant information does the editor someone used 20+ years ago > give, especially considering that the "other" field is a text field. > > The best I can think of would be an interesting infographic visualising > trends between how long someone has been using Emacs and what they used > prior to that. Yes, that is not so relevant IMHO, but then if one is asking for prior editors, list should rather be extensive as to make it more specific. List of text editors - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_text_editors Those issues most relevant would be IMHO usability, accessibility, user interface, understanding and learning Emacs and problems in using it. There is question covering it, but is general. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/
Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> Nationality may be multiple to many people.
>
> Instead, it is better if you ask for "Country where you are located"
> as what is of interest is "where are users" located but what is their
> nationality is rather personal question that does not matter for
> Emacs.
I changed my country of residence multiple times since I started using
Emacs. I do not think that _current_ country makes any meaningful sense.
At least, not more than nationality.
Best,
Ihor
Timothy <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes: > It would be good to maximise the utility of the survey to the three > groups mentioned earlier. In this vein I hope some of you, > emacs-devel, would be willing to provide some feedback on the survey > :) Thanks for doing this survey -- and I just wanted to mention that while it's nice that you're collecting feedback on the survey, you should also feel free to ignore any of that feedback you don't agree with. It's your survey, after all, so you should do what you want to. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1219 bytes --] Hi Jean, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes: > It is interesting that the whole survey is not talking about “text > editing” – I understand, this is Emacs, but you should be talking > about text editing so much more. Text editors are about text. If there are any specific questions you think would be good, please suggest them. > ** Which of the following activities do you use Emacs for? :MultiSelect:Mandatory: > - [ ] Work > - [ ] Hobby projects > - [ ] *other* > > The question is vague, rather general. Some people will say “work” for > hobby projects. In my life I work what I like, and I make money too > and on hobby projects there is some money, so is it work. For me that > question is vague. > > In that above question, in the context of the question, I suggest that > you expand it to following (while editing my English): > [*snip] To me it seems like your suggestions conflate work and the nature of one’s work. Since we ask that later anyway, I don’t think having that extra specificity here is actually of much benefit. E.g. > - [ ] I use it as student or pupil in school To me seems equivalent to use=work + job=student. All the best, Timothy
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 444 bytes --] Hi Jean, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes: > ** Which operating system to you use Emacs on? :MultiSelect:Mandatory: > - [ ] GNU/Linux > - [ ] Windows > - [ ] MacOS > - [ ] BSD > - [ ] *other* > > I suggest adding Android based systems, as Emacs does work well in > Termux and there is also graphical version which I personally don’t > use. Android etc. can just be written in the other field. All the best, Timothy
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 617 bytes --] Hi Jean, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes: > ** How were you introduced to Emacs? :RadioSelect: > - [ ] Friend > - [ ] University > - [ ] Some part of the internet > - [ ] *other* > > Emacs was mainly distributed in GNU/Linux distributions and before > that on CD-ROMs by GNU. > > The main introduction to Emacs may not come from a friend, but it > comes from the simple fact that it exists on GNU/Linux distribution. The fact that this list is not exhaustive is why the *other* field exists, “Discovered on my GNU/Linux distribution” can just be entered there. All the best, Timothy
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1502 bytes --] Hi Jean, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes: > ** What features motivated you to initially try Emacs? :MultiSelect: > - [ ] Extensibility > - [ ] Package/ecosystem > - [ ] Community > - [ ] Part of the GNU project / FSF > > You are forgetting the main feature of “text editing”. Added. > The main reason why I have started using Emacs is because it was text editor > and displayed in every Window Managers’ menus. I could not possibly know of > extensibility neither of packages, as I have not opened Emacs, I have clicked > on it and started studying, only then I could find extensibility and packages. > Without opening it, launching it, I would not know about the community > neither, and I would not easily find out it is GNU project. If somebody is trying Emacs from word of mouth etc. I’d imagine the extensibility of Emacs may have been mentioned. > “Extensibility” is not understandable to many users, make a survey in > simple English. Hmm, personally I don’t see the issue here. > Myself I do not understand how “package” would motivate me to use > Emacs, but if you wish to say that, then please: Well, I’d say Magit and Org-mode are pretty motivating packages. > Ecosystem > <https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#Ecosystem> I’m talking about the Emacs package ecosystem, to which the comments there do not seem to apply. It may be clearer just to say “Package(s)” though. All the best, Timothy
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 775 bytes --] Hi Jean, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes: > please include options: > > ** Do you use an Email client in Emacs? :RadioSelect:Mandatory: > - [ ] No > - [ ] Rmail (standard) > - [ ] MH-E (built-in) > - [ ] Gnus > - [ ] Mu4e > - [ ] notmuch > - [ ] Wanderlust > - [ ] Partially Emacs and external client > - [ ] *other* > > That is because it is important to mention that Emacs may be used to > send email, not just read email. I am sending emails from within > Emacs, but often reading email by using Mutt either as external > process in xterm or within vterm inside of Emacs. The options listed simply aim to catch the most common responses. Rarer options like Rmail can simply be entered into the other field, as mentioned in a previous reply. All the best, Timothy
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1289 bytes --] Hi Jean, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes: > ** Which industry do you work in? :RadioSelect: > - [ ] Academia (Student) > - [ ] Academia/Research > - [ ] Education > - [ ] FinTech > - [ ] Healthcare > - [ ] Legal > - [ ] Manufacturing > - [ ] Software Development > - [ ] Telecom > - [ ] *other* > > That question of industry provides some defaults which are rather > subjectively choosen Any list of industries is subjective. > it is better that people enter industry themselves. They can do so via the other field. The aim here is to capture what I suspect will be the most common responses. > Or make a proper list of industries, something like: > > <https://www.bls.gov/iag/tgs/iag_index_alpha.htm> > > <https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/types-of-industry> > > <https://www.ibisworld.com/united-states/list-of-industries/> > “Student” is not an industry. No, but I think it’s the most helpful response students could give. > Academia is not a specific industry, you maybe wish to say > “University” I picked “academia” to avoid any potential confusion with student/university. > “Education” is not an industry, maybe “Education Services” is better. Changed. All the best, Timothy
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 478 bytes --] Hi Jean, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes: > ** How did you find out about this survey? :RadioSelect:Mandatory: > (snip) > I suggest that you include: > > - [ ] Fediverse (GNU Social, Mastodon, Pleroma) > - [ ] XMPP Chat Hmm, I’m not sure if these should be added or left for people to enter into “other”. > - [ ] Emacs Mailing List (to be more specific) Changed. > - [ ] Friend Merged with “Direct message”. All the best, Timothy
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 719 bytes --] Hi Jean, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes: > ** Which editor did you use before you started using Emacs? :RadioSelect: > > People use Emacs for years, you have forgotten to include “vi” – Vim > is rather the new “vi”, those people using Emacs for 20+ years did not > possibly use VS Code or IntelliJ or such new editors. 1. I’m not sure if it’s any more helpful to us to know that people came from vi not vim. 2. They can enter “vi” in the other field should they so wish. > You should include the old editors, and not just let it as a list of > modern editors. In these rare cases, the other field is more appropriate than an exhaustive list. All the best, Timothy
Timothy <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes:
> Hi Jean,
>
> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
>
>> ** How did you find out about this survey? :RadioSelect:Mandatory:
>> (snip)
>
>> I suggest that you include:
>>
>> - [ ] Fediverse (GNU Social, Mastodon, Pleroma)
>> - [ ] XMPP Chat
>
> Hmm, I’m not sure if these should be added or left for people to enter into “other”.
Fediverse seems appropriate enough, but a special field for XMPP (as
opposed to any other private messaging service) seems superfluous.
Timothy <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes:
> Hi Jean,
>
> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
>
>> ** How were you introduced to Emacs? :RadioSelect:
>> - [ ] Friend
>> - [ ] University
>> - [ ] Some part of the internet
>> - [ ] *other*
>>
>> Emacs was mainly distributed in GNU/Linux distributions and before
>> that on CD-ROMs by GNU.
>>
>> The main introduction to Emacs may not come from a friend, but it
>> comes from the simple fact that it exists on GNU/Linux distribution.
>
> The fact that this list is not exhaustive is why the *other* field exists,
> “Discovered on my GNU/Linux distribution” can just be entered there.
As a general question, do you have the means to recognise similar
answers written into the "other" field. E.g. in the best case that that
"Discovered on my GNU/Linux distribution" and "Distributed in a linux
distro" can be aggregated into the same statistic?
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 405 bytes --] Hi Philip, > As a general question, do you have the means to recognise similar > answers written into the “other” field. E.g. in the best case that that > “Discovered on my GNU/Linux distribution” and “Distributed in a linux > distro” can be aggregated into the same statistic? Yep, we can take the pile of “other” responses and look for similarities. All the best, Timothy
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1685 bytes --] I am not sure what I would answer to this question. I am retired from an academic post but still do the kind of things I did from the 1970s. Even as an academic did stuff for other areas, computing mostly. Buy I must choose one, so I guess "other". ==John ff On 23 May 2022, 18:29, at 18:29, Timothy <tecosaur@gmail.com> wrote: >Hi Jean, > >Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes: > >> ** Which industry do you work in? :RadioSelect: >> - [ ] Academia (Student) >> - [ ] Academia/Research >> - [ ] Education >> - [ ] FinTech >> - [ ] Healthcare >> - [ ] Legal >> - [ ] Manufacturing >> - [ ] Software Development >> - [ ] Telecom >> - [ ] *other* >> >> That question of industry provides some defaults which are rather >> subjectively choosen > >Any list of industries is subjective. > >> it is better that people enter industry themselves. > >They can do so via the other field. The aim here is to capture what I >suspect >will be the most common responses. > >> Or make a proper list of industries, something like: >> >> <https://www.bls.gov/iag/tgs/iag_index_alpha.htm> >> >> ><https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/types-of-industry> >> >> <https://www.ibisworld.com/united-states/list-of-industries/> > >> “Student” is not an industry. > >No, but I think it’s the most helpful response students could give. > >> Academia is not a specific industry, you maybe wish to say >> “University” > >I picked “academia” to avoid any potential confusion with >student/university. > >> “Education” is not an industry, maybe “Education Services” is better. > >Changed. > >All the best, >Timothy [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3088 bytes --]
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > ** Which operating system to you use Emacs on? :MultiSelect:Mandatory: > > - [ ] GNU/Linux > > - [ ] Windows > > - [ ] MacOS > > - [ ] BSD > > - [ ] *other* It is important to make it clear that nonfree operating systems are not choices "just as good" as free ones. We can't tell people what to do, but we hope for their sake that they discard those soon . How about adding this text: (If you're using Windows or MacOS, we hope, for your freedom's sake, that you are making arrangements to cease using it soon. See https://gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-even-more-important.html and https://gnu.org/malware/.) This way, people won't assume that the GNU Project shares the usual attitude that which operating system to use is a purely practical question. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1045 bytes --] Hi All, If any of you are wondering what happened to this, it has not been forgotten about! My very competitive todo list just pushed this on the backburner for a while. I’m returning to this now though, and hopefully will start testing the deployment and promoting the survey shortly (probably over the next few weeks). If anybody has last-minute “I really think you should change/add/remove this question” feedback, now would be the time to mention it. I think the current state of affairs is fairly decent though, and I don’t think it would be worth bikeshedding the questions 😛 — we can always refine/improve next year. The current set of questions: <https://github.com/tecosaur/emacs-survey/blob/master/config/survey.jl> With regards to survey promotion, I’m thinking it would be good to mention this as widely as possible to try to reach a diverse range of respondents. If other people might have ideas on how to effectively share this survey around, that would be great. All the best, Timothy
Timothy <tec@tecosaur.net> writes: > Hi All, > > If any of you are wondering what happened to this, it has not been forgotten > about! My very competitive todo list just pushed this on the backburner for a > while. > > I’m returning to this now though, and hopefully will start testing the > deployment and promoting the survey shortly (probably over the next few weeks). First of all, I'd just like to thank you once more for taking it on yourself to organise this! I am looking forward to seeing the results! > If anybody has last-minute “I really think you should change/add/remove this > question” feedback, now would be the time to mention it. I think the current > state of affairs is fairly decent though, and I don’t think it would be worth > bikeshedding the questions 😛 — we can always refine/improve next year. > > The current set of questions: > <https://github.com/tecosaur/emacs-survey/blob/master/config/survey.jl> We have already been discussing this in private, but I'd like to re-post it here for others to comment on: Timothy writes: > Philip Kaludercic writes: > >> I remember that “residence” was at least one more option that was >> discussed, and I still think that it is preferable to nationality. > > Why? It seems like a worse option to me. > >> doesn’t even have need to be that precise, it could be something like >> the UN geoscheme[0], i.e. the following: >> >> - Eastern Africa >> - Middle Africa >> - Northern Africa >> - Southern Africa >> - Western Africa >> - Caribbean >> - Central America >> - Northern America >> - South America >> - Central Asia >> - Eastern Asia >> - South-eastern Asia >> - Southern Asia >> - Western Asia >> - Eastern Europe >> - Northern Europe >> - Southern Europe >> - Western Europe >> - Australia and New Zealand >> - Melanesia >> - Micronesia >> - Polynesia > >> Optionally some regions like “North America” and “Eastern Europe” could >> be subdivided[1]. This gives us an approximation of where Emacs users are >> found, instead of what countries they might or might not have been born >> in. > > Nationality isn’t which country you’re born in, but the country you belong to > most. For someone like me this is a meaningless question, and I don't think I am alone here. Again, what I am wondering is what the question's intent is. Maybe I am missing something but finding out what the association is between Emacs usage/behaviour and residence seems more interesting than national identity. It might also be that the entire question and anything related to it is pointless to begin with... > With regards to survey promotion, I’m thinking it would be good to mention this > as widely as possible to try to reach a diverse range of respondents. If other > people might have ideas on how to effectively share this survey around, that > would be great. It will probably be best to mention in the usual places (the mailing lists, IRC, Emacs news, r*ddit, HN, image boards, etc.) with an explicit call to share it among friends and colleagues that also use Emacs but perhaps don't follow "recent events". Anything beyond that will probably be a waste of time. > All the best, > Timothy
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > We have already been discussing this in private, but I'd like to re-post > it here for others to comment on: Could we possibly move this discussion to a different list? Just to keep it separate from Emacs development discussions. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
> > We have already been discussing this in private, but I'd like to re-post
> > it here for others to comment on:
>
> Could we possibly move this discussion to a different list?
> Just to keep it separate from Emacs development discussions.
Sure, but it seems that there are no comments on the issue anyway. Or
are you saying that discussions on the survey in general are off-topic?
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > Sure, but it seems that there are no comments on the issue anyway. Or > are you saying that discussions on the survey in general are off-topic? The Emacs survey is certainly on topic for emacs-devel. I just expected there to be a lot of discussion about the survey, so separating it would be more convenient for everyone. If it isn't a lot of discussion, then there's no problem. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1952 bytes --] Timothy <tec@tecosaur.net> writes: > Hi All, > > If any of you are wondering what happened to this, it has not been forgotten > about! My very competitive todo list just pushed this on the backburner for a > while. > > I’m returning to this now though, and hopefully will start testing the > deployment and promoting the survey shortly (probably over the next few weeks). > > If anybody has last-minute “I really think you should change/add/remove this > question” feedback, now would be the time to mention it. I think the current > state of affairs is fairly decent though, and I don’t think it would be worth > bikeshedding the questions 😛 — we can always refine/improve next year. > > The current set of questions: > <https://github.com/tecosaur/emacs-survey/blob/master/config/survey.jl> > > With regards to survey promotion, I’m thinking it would be good to mention this > as widely as possible to try to reach a diverse range of respondents. If other > people might have ideas on how to effectively share this survey around, that > would be great. > > All the best, > Timothy > Everything looks good, except the following question: --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- RadioSelect(:respondent_education, "What is the highest level of education you have completed?", ["High school" => "School", "Associate's Degree" => "Associates", "Bachelor's Degree" => "Bachelors", "Master's Degree" => "Masters", "PhD or equivalent" => "PhD"], mandatory=false), --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- What if someone is still in high school? -- Akib Azmain Turja Find me on Mastodon at @akib@hostux.social. This message is signed by me with my GnuPG key. Its fingerprint is: 7001 8CE5 819F 17A3 BBA6 66AF E74F 0EFA 922A E7F5 [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 832 bytes --]
Akib Azmain Turja <akib@disroot.org> writes:
> Everything looks good, except the following question:
>
> RadioSelect(:respondent_education,
> "What is the highest level of education you have completed?",
> ["High school" => "School",
> "Associate's Degree" => "Associates",
> "Bachelor's Degree" => "Bachelors",
> "Master's Degree" => "Masters",
> "PhD or equivalent" => "PhD"],
> mandatory=false),
>
> What if someone is still in high school?
I think the number of those individuals using Emacs is small enough that
they can simply choose not to answer.
Akib Azmain Turja <akib@disroot.org> writes:
> Timothy <tec@tecosaur.net> writes:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> If any of you are wondering what happened to this, it has not been forgotten
>> about! My very competitive todo list just pushed this on the backburner for a
>> while.
>>
>> I’m returning to this now though, and hopefully will start testing the
>> deployment and promoting the survey shortly (probably over the next few weeks).
>>
>> If anybody has last-minute “I really think you should change/add/remove this
>> question” feedback, now would be the time to mention it. I think the current
>> state of affairs is fairly decent though, and I don’t think it would be worth
>> bikeshedding the questions 😛 — we can always refine/improve next year.
>>
>> The current set of questions:
>> <https://github.com/tecosaur/emacs-survey/blob/master/config/survey.jl>
>>
>> With regards to survey promotion, I’m thinking it would be good to mention this
>> as widely as possible to try to reach a diverse range of respondents. If other
>> people might have ideas on how to effectively share this survey around, that
>> would be great.
>>
>> All the best,
>> Timothy
>>
>
> Everything looks good, except the following question:
>
> RadioSelect(:respondent_education,
> "What is the highest level of education you have completed?",
> ["High school" => "School",
> "Associate's Degree" => "Associates",
> "Bachelor's Degree" => "Bachelors",
> "Master's Degree" => "Masters",
> "PhD or equivalent" => "PhD"],
> mandatory=false),
>
> What if someone is still in high school?
The question is not mandatory so I think it is fine.
Timothy <tec@tecosaur.net> writes:
> Hi All,
>
> If any of you are wondering what happened to this, it has not been forgotten
> about! My very competitive todo list just pushed this on the backburner for a
> while.
>
> I’m returning to this now though, and hopefully will start testing the
> deployment and promoting the survey shortly (probably over the next few weeks).
>
> If anybody has last-minute “I really think you should change/add/remove this
> question” feedback, now would be the time to mention it. I think the current
> state of affairs is fairly decent though, and I don’t think it would be worth
> bikeshedding the questions 😛 — we can always refine/improve next year.
>
> The current set of questions:
> <https://github.com/tecosaur/emacs-survey/blob/master/config/survey.jl>
Another thing that came to mind is that the survey appears to implicitly
assume that Emacs is a participants main or even only editor. I know
plenty of people where this is not the case, who perhaps use Emacs only
for Org, Magit or for some other mode. So perhaps questions like
"Which editor did you use before you started using Emacs?",
should be generalised to
"Which editor do/did you use besides Emacs?",
and a questions could be added to the effect of "How frequently do you
use Emacs a week?", "Where does Emacs fall short?".
Hi Stefan, Timothey, * Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> [2022-05-19; 13:37 -04]: >> I’m not sure what’s best here. Nationality feels like the right thing to me, but >> as you say some people could reasonably check two or even three of them. >> However, I’d consider a list of 237 checkboxes to be pretty bad (as opposed to >> the current single-select dropdown menu). Would it be unreasonable to ask for a >> primary nationality, if that works for 99% of people that may be good enough >> overall for us. > > To be honest, I have no idea why we'd care about nationality. I can see > why we'd care about where our users reside (e.g. country of residence), +1 for country of residence. Regarding the idea of asking for region instead: If people answer country of residence it's possible to aggregate the answers to regions. > or maybe which is their mother's tongue, or the language they speak most > comfortably, but nationality? only as a proxy for some of those. Makes sense to me, especially if there would be a next question how well they find their language supported by Emacs. Or if they need additional packages for supporting their language. Ciao; Gregor -- -... --- .-. . -.. ..--.. ...-.-