From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Abysmal state of GTK build Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2022 20:34:39 +0800 Message-ID: <87czcr6sv4.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <875yillm64.fsf@gnus.org> <87edx9ist0.fsf@yahoo.com> <874jy5gjoi.fsf@yahoo.com> <87wnb0bnmn.fsf@gnus.org> <87tu64ec1w.fsf@yahoo.com> <875yik8pb6.fsf@gnus.org> <87bksceaqu.fsf@yahoo.com> <87czcs79l8.fsf@gnus.org> <87wnb0ctf0.fsf@yahoo.com> <87y1vf8rto.fsf@yahoo.com> <83sfln89ez.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="36046"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cc: larsi@gnus.org, gregory@heytings.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Aug 23 14:39:24 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oQTBj-0009Ah-AA for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 23 Aug 2022 14:39:23 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:36450 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oQTBi-0002LA-7c for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 23 Aug 2022 08:39:22 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:59550) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oQT7P-0006Ah-9i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Aug 2022 08:34:55 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic305-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.185.147]:45650) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oQT7L-0004M4-1b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Aug 2022 08:34:54 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1661258088; bh=Xr9ZdDEXUvEnU1XN4z5hqKIIK5NiAWDiQJV6wPLuQjc=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=ngC5dDUy83ri8X53rwiPq2ekaLbLNqalbDUgqaYu0b90YNIdokhYa/eOMIqxlblbAzqKdEr57uuL8GBjT8OlDAQMJ73/uwcZhIhb+iOmEuwnijPEaifkyC5OotAF5khPVwqiKD+gCO55uEF44rt3YXaipt3FRhnITU0lR/ECKiA5XMHRms6PLvTIqoOvMtp7xjUU8YU+rofGJ/sLXxTK2WaTSg5PIwq/2QC7/svhF1hFIBxiEuYraLarzpadLUYxJtaePGJXudZRiOtXtJGkV4TI0/TkPdbaNbkK9F3KgaPOr+p+Zd7t25aU4rD/6//EZh2/077jopd6LQnV/qdoQQ== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1661258088; bh=NUQKclH1NBdpj7o/4aZJ0MOsw6vFBUMia7LQOLB1sFO=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=gY3vjf+JDqY3OyURDIsmYYYiq34vpa3KfPa0fh0c3zpk1JJVtG6SW61j6V/Elwj7MzyNX1c5JJDXvQ5vM84Hyo7QVyTlcM+Agh/rREi7P7q0k5vxF399645nX6oEqMMAXgJDvChfxX1FxR9UIXLCVSteJ0s4eUtZldUdnZfzHEUNqH0CZQxpmf+JuPdwpJaZYPOptKBxrs39vnCMHD6y4vEqJ+qb3At1c5NjAYe85Epx4cfzxZ3VoyI0dGQ7kCRmImc//DbgK1riTcdkZ2GKC1tRklm4xr6deSIefAFbG+pQGeWM7tTPZURDPkN4EvSYG2AGDm0Tiahzm8KlODCHyQ== X-YMail-OSG: 0jvTQp4VM1lgtPSMnVKzo5UUssFSTPi7SQ3kprmwZ90msmA_85eXDzjTroRT_RZ Rw6.w7cbOz1ZkPTFsgHSTNx.Iy62DlPqv6AR.CFVVthFuzw0xBwd1yauZI4Xx3HQTukIbBekkPI9 ivrreHhF__1LKH8qscPMbKQuJcU7qE2RUBmpX6kxl2xdLOimJQbcJ1aeq.9dbFN2S7.ywbwrywF4 NWPyClCE4OOBsocg01BDM6asZ7qrgmAqetbsfdif_sYnwBsMqWkicrHCCLOqxApnJdNI8PMhe1kV 7x.C9kh3XwsTIyy.Qdc7DhjkoPIkF2FSdLlKhorcKvqHoYb4sGmmKWzd1a.mbaWcGbkbIfHqgGBN Szdmvf2N0ZUhzjh1dCSvijaPEOzUC8fFuhSPhV6EiMBMZiQQzSN3wgh_Ik6IpWeuUOiB8isAEv64 dppM8eCQH.30oiOdlyjOY0yxhBZE9s7cBf8M.Og9LJ3lkB7Btc.KZoPBGyNcGezlF3ML.kz3GLnP XPSCVy_DVoM54hCR4CeWvzdbXt3nYd.5cqatRuWYzplcjOZQ9y3BcfHrFbxEBCdUJQ_jBKjJXfvZ edFiQ6nCP97mpbVYAYuSI5xffNlmAFwWtvxwxXx_j4JeTx6rzs3b4Q7nimkPHnTiAYG4MMsesnwG tccaBqvmnAD.aWTv0KiS5UnB6CLvunXGb8YvfHKEYywOPxOPQm5m6wDSmT.EzIU13bY.eHB0A_8Z hkcAnhMlRVN0m4ZUGogDyFzL06PfK2eHijZjnni7lXY0NOA43d0R1MEKX15pbjBz8cN22tvMzvkF JZEzmz8R8lQth5KmJC3Wi6SYvBRxpjetuKEEwwNn.P X-Sonic-MF: Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic305.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 23 Aug 2022 12:34:48 +0000 Original-Received: by hermes--canary-production-sg3-6f58cd9b5-jrp6f (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 16553521dffd2b2b1d6cea1c2c7dbfb9; Tue, 23 Aug 2022 12:34:44 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <83sfln89ez.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Tue, 23 Aug 2022 14:51:48 +0300") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.20560 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.185.147; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic305-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:293874 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Po Lu >> Cc: Gregory Heytings , emacs-devel@gnu.org >> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2022 13:14:11 +0800 >> >> But after some investigation, I've come to the conclusion that no >> toolkit will be able to replace the hand-crafted Emacs X11 support, >> especially in very tricky areas such as drag-and-drop and selections. > > I question the validity of such a radical conclusion. I think it is > asking for too much, something that is not really necessary in this > case. > >> For example, Qt doesn't respect kDNDStatusSendHereFlag in XDND >> drag-and-drop messages, fails to wait for XdndStatus before sending >> XdndPosition/XdndDrop, and provides no method for programs to set it on >> their drop targets. It also doesn't support the X Direct Save protocol, >> which can't be implemented on top, since the special action required for >> it is abstracted away and not available to programs using Emacs, or the >> the Motif and OffiX drag-and-drop protocols. All of that is tolerated >> by other programs but will lead to problems over slow network >> connections. > > I think this is still better than the situation with GTK. So yes, we > need to give up something, but if someone wants a nice toolkit > appearance and widgets that look reasonably modern (something that we > will never have in the non-toolkit build), they might just agree to > the tradeoff. After all, no one will convince me that DND is the most > important operation in Emacs, not even that it is important. It's a > nicety, that's all. Well, the point I was trying to make was that we need a toolkit where we can use the same techniques that we already do to mix Xlib code with toolkit code, letting the toolkit draw widgets, while allowing Emacs to handle complicated window system behavior such as drag-and-drop. > Doesn't Qt provide support for non-text selections OOTB? If it does, > why would we need to step through the converted? COMPOUND_TEXT is an X11 specific text format that Qt doesn't support correctly out of the box. > Again, we shouldn't require a perfect toolkit, we should settle for a > reasonably good one. Because none of the alternatives is such a > perfect choice. Indeed, but that isn't the point I was trying to make.