From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Abysmal state of GTK build Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2022 09:29:22 +0800 Message-ID: <87czcnu70t.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <87ilmlluxq.fsf.ref@yahoo.com> <87ilmlluxq.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h725olz1.fsf@gnus.org> <874jy4bvw1.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="23030"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cc: rms@gnu.org, Visuwesh , larsi@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Rudolf =?utf-8?Q?Adamkovi=C4=8D?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Aug 26 03:30:23 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oROAw-0005pT-NO for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 26 Aug 2022 03:30:22 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:57290 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oROAv-00020T-5I for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 25 Aug 2022 21:30:21 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:58682) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oROAE-0001LI-Hk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 25 Aug 2022 21:29:38 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic302-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.186.146]:44704) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oROAB-0006re-TP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 25 Aug 2022 21:29:38 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1661477370; bh=AlsFYYP4AQm07VY+9FBvp3yfHQZUr1LKlJxtviFf07M=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=PF8oDSjsoi2X0NnvqTyX2RtT1CQwD8VPk+80cT7JxYAVT6gTsjEL9Tnee4u6k4r9+/JO496O/9rMAdF3B+TwcO1qQA4Kh41UoqWwgfyad8Ut+g3OveTBT+dnfcQ/VpaC52qJUKzxyPSD5Gm7gjfiNn8RWmA4pmpBpQkqoXoyi/A6V1AAjYyjIHn946pHUj8JwL1eZQRCS6DpEarbSyutPIIGZa9D/ToNSYFYoLKL68M3e9fDO0HqPpdjJssgynh1M3PLj279YZgKMgu+UPM50X3mnK4/QRtc4tv+Y8HdBkInKpCL6RWS3QTMDskUxBXda9GeJdZEAq62Qoqh9TghkA== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1661477370; bh=vY4dehDleVueWcAVDr3OlcV3gDuzpIxjleZk/UDZ6e/=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=io9UnPwy/gniIbUa3b5QwnwgFFav16wwNUOckarK630fULxe6UCaXHi/e9L7bYUlzKSS4SrwqQGKIwcrz3t/Z09VLNMHvgTJq6d7wGBMRFLAWGglYjy9sLIw0YlNBfnvLudZgr3PPVOlpMKsmEm8E601wIj5y5zWu1xS9OvFYEqZgxZCdTdE4Ips7v+2zXkZPOpG+gviX/3qD6Y9r0DvuWi6OaR3O+kISSIIjLrBG3d4Sb1siehkPqBQJUQfDJCT4m5iAgxDeFfdY66zCbIT46XFppAcshI02d3gbkyesGARs9CuI6yTS67m/N81wjAYRq9mtBJThyavGFMcdZw3nw== X-YMail-OSG: T.AcLqUVM1m7gFLSWeFOkrhR0azbK24kC5cjoe8kPPU861DCHq4d_Uzk4kGxUYi FpFMd53cwLPO2lUUAzAj79QLgeefdDylIOH3Nl0nCe7W2IkCrkfOyXt2lU2keO0Cdzs6PVzsmBYF xLDnZt5nmJHfC_4ez3LWxuGIVZHqJi9v0kXDVDk68aYYlpJ.iosAc_mbpVFKo3rn5kzjLrkFxQOe 98yaY0KvNKJuxDRKGoXgSWcIQEaeSNZtO67xzmdbXnEQgOgcZw5MCV4gPMOi2XC7CZxyAYUP5Hpz N5.hUuOs52rCFyIQBWCRiHA44IkBiwTOynquy2dAyDddgzSXQ_9OeGsYTclPLtILmUVJ1SkZHzYI 6N.WZHm7x._FWWbbpSadD66foDZVhIzwblDYkP6Uk860xtqOK.1DxTtd9NrRWY65NW927A4gwZj3 o99fFiHLCXjgX7NOuq68Gpq6yCB6s9GKXUQ5sFS7Se4aq4onX1QBq46ujUudGOByiDWM.uJBurHB pAls1ZbL8vthSnr3XyyALrLnUxbh0hbYT8JDTDMkKM6MTrZb2ztnzN9Gvap8P4vp1ZuRU6f6LGEk P.MyVTD_AhlAzZzwoqhh.Rz5SKi9d6hpfvUHz6QNgm4YTtUp5Kq337IUHRd31efTtTLnHNRugtFy O.tnVahWI7TfD53e1pp.otfpGw3TJQvfqodoNIKy1f.aaBRnzD8gNFkuUpsmpPlUPjrHqkxrq7mW _tWrBMPdyuPTkdg801Ors0vX07alg69EoyjUt6Y.pGBLzKta3Z3KNYVuhU30mea7ETXMeLNYNd3z KznsewyMEGNrN6OpniOtnqu53jjvnJdptdDV_0rM9B X-Sonic-MF: Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic302.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 26 Aug 2022 01:29:30 +0000 Original-Received: by hermes--canary-production-sg3-6f58cd9b5-84qt6 (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 1230ca57fbefa21a21b9ae01cc256f1f; Fri, 26 Aug 2022 01:29:26 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: ("Rudolf =?utf-8?Q?Adamkovi=C4=8D=22'?= =?utf-8?Q?s?= message of "Thu, 25 Aug 2022 18:01:25 +0200") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.20595 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.186.146; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic302-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:294118 Archived-At: Rudolf Adamkovi=C4=8D writes: > +1 We should look at the big picture and keep the discussion going until > we know where to go long-term. Further, why not look at the other free > projects that have solved the problem already? > > For example, I keep hearing about how Blender does a fantastic job with > their UI, which is multi-platform and yet highly praised. The UI caters > perfectly to the program and to the people who use it. That aligns with > the "Emacs way" more than fighting GUI frameworks that keep changing > with UX fashion like Gnome and GTK do, in my opinion. [...] > Could we learn anything from Blender? Obviously, Emacs has different > requirements, such as a more advanced "text view" component, but what > about the rest? I note that Blender has much more development momentum than Emacs, and was one of the programs I tested while working on the drag-and-drop support. It has several big problems there, including only supporting version 3 of the XDND protocol (which is obsolete and most noticeably does not work with other programs written with GTK+, both 2.x and 3.x), not deleting XdndTypeList after the drag-and-drop operation completes, and not deleting the property given in a SelectionNotify event after reading it. It also doesn't support frame resize synchronization, so resizing a Blender window will make its contents lag behind the resize. Compare that to Emacs 29, under a compositing manager such as GNOME Shell. Blender's menus are also a sore spot. They do not grab the mouse or workably extend outside the toplevel window boundaries, which makes displaying long menus (think Help -> Describe -> Describe Language Environment) very annoying. The other fundamental difference between us and Blender is that Blender is 3D animation software, and thus can afford all of these problems, since graphics professionals will be running it fullscreen, not alongside other programs on a desktop. We can not, especially not when every other text editor that does use a toolkit does all of that correctly. So, if a project as large as Blender cannot get it right, how is it practical for us to do so?