From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ted Zlatanov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: package.el + DVCS for security and convenience Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 09:22:06 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Message-ID: <87bodg7v1t.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <8738zf70ep.fsf@riseup.net> <871uejlbm1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87obhmzl2f.fsf@bzg.ath.cx> <20121222141742.7494b429fe36e5ccef50cf6f@gmail.com> <87d2y2w9j5.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87wqwas0gr.fsf@bzg.ath.cx> <87d2y2p6d7.fsf@bzg.ath.cx> <87sj6xg9p2.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <87k3s78hsc.fsf@lifelogs.com> <874njbuen3.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1356531743 30202 80.91.229.3 (26 Dec 2012 14:22:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 14:22:23 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Dec 26 15:22:38 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1TnrsS-0003Z5-TD for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 26 Dec 2012 15:22:37 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:48697 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TnrsE-000190-Ir for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 26 Dec 2012 09:22:22 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:57414) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TnrsC-000184-1e for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 26 Dec 2012 09:22:21 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TnrsA-0003Ye-Pq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 26 Dec 2012 09:22:19 -0500 Original-Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:51659) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TnrsA-0003YU-JC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 26 Dec 2012 09:22:18 -0500 Original-Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1TnrsM-0003S8-8y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 26 Dec 2012 15:22:30 +0100 Original-Received: from c-65-96-148-157.hsd1.ma.comcast.net ([65.96.148.157]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 26 Dec 2012 15:22:30 +0100 Original-Received: from tzz by c-65-96-148-157.hsd1.ma.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 26 Dec 2012 15:22:30 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-Lines: 40 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-65-96-148-157.hsd1.ma.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.130006 (Ma Gnus v0.6) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:Qc0l2l72QsrFp9MHST1ZJHQ5YdY= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.229.3 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:155902 Archived-At: On Tue, 25 Dec 2012 10:03:28 +0900 "Stephen J. Turnbull" wrote: SJT> The GPG documentation is full of warnings about doing it yourself, and SJT> recommends using the GUI or the command-line interface. ISTR at one SJT> time they didn't even provide libraries (do they now?) for that reason. SJT> I'm sure we've all seen some of the horror stories of what sometimes SJT> happens to competent programmers who implement the protocols SJT> themselves on RISKS (not to mention really terrifying stories like SJT> "The 16,384 Keys of Debian"). Remember, as soon as Emacs distributes SJT> something, hordes of users are potential users of the feature. That SJT> may make it an attractive target for an attack. Anything built in to SJT> Emacs needs to be *strong*. Is it worth that much effort? The same logic applies to using GnuTLS inside Emacs vs. gnutls-cli externally. I don't buy either argument. Emacs is a platform and must make intelligent choices to protect the security of its users. Depending on external binaries has always been a security issue that shifts the burden to the user and the system administrator. (Also see my earlier suggestions about providing secure data storage at the C level, so Emacs is not as vulnerable to core dumps to find user passwords and other secrets. There are many areas to improve.) The OpenPGP protocol is described in http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4880 and thus fairly standard. Verifying a signature, in particular, does not require implementing the full protocol, and that's one of the reasons I suggested it: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4880#section-2.5 SJT> Why not just start with the relatively easy optional verification of SJT> signed files based on an installed OpenPG tool, and add pluggable SJT> verification modules as people have interest? I also think that's a good approach, as long as we keep the long-term goals above in mind. Ted