From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Nicolas Goaziou Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: "Why is emacs so square?" Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 11:12:59 +0200 Message-ID: <87blnjopd0.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> References: <863691n4xl.wl-me@enzu.ru> <86blno9yle.wl-me@enzu.ru> <87d0845msg.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h7xgjasw.fsf@yahoo.com> <875zdwjais.fsf@yahoo.com> <6a198677-41b6-4dbd-39d0-2b01550d53cf@yandex.ru> <32f6a2ce-e30f-059f-dcd4-233d666a10a1@yandex.ru> <87r1whiape.fsf@fastmail.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="108819"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.3 (gnu/linux) Cc: Joost Kremers , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Apr 22 11:14:26 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jRBSc-000SAx-L4 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 11:14:26 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46494 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRBSb-0005q3-LY for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 05:14:25 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:41670) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRBRK-0004ub-TF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 05:13:21 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRBRK-0001yJ-16 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 05:13:06 -0400 Original-Received: from relay7-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.200]:37649) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRBRJ-0001tJ-Hd; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 05:13:05 -0400 X-Originating-IP: 185.131.40.67 Original-Received: from localhost (40-67.ipv4.commingeshautdebit.fr [185.131.40.67]) (Authenticated sender: admin@nicolasgoaziou.fr) by relay7-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5706020013; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 09:12:59 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Tue, 21 Apr 2020 23:17:10 -0400") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.70.183.200; envelope-from=mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr; helo=relay7-d.mail.gandi.net X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/04/22 05:13:01 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 217.70.183.200 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247503 Archived-At: Hello, Richard Stallman writes: > When you tell me that Emacs has important facilities -- doing jobs > very different from outline editing -- that I don't know about because > they have been integrated as "part of Org mode", my conclusion is that > we should have integrated them differently. Those other facilities > should not be treated as "part of Org mode". They should be separate > facilities, each one documented separately, and usable by itself. > > I would like to see those facilities separated from Org mode and made > into separate first-class subsystems. Then they can be documented in > the Emacs manual. There may be a misconception about what Org really is. It is unfortunate if its documentation lets one think the mode is about outline editing. Org is both a lightweight markup language, and a major mode to edit it. Versatile, it is useful for keeping notes, maintaining TODO lists, and project planning. Powerful, it may be used as a complete authoring system, with support for literate programming and reproducible research. Outline editing is but the design choice that was made for the major mode to edit documents with Org syntax. To put it differently, the common factor between the "other facilities" you mention, whatever they are, is not the outliner part, but the markup language behind it. As a consequence, it probably makes little sense to separate such "facilities"---the term would need to be properly defined in the current context, tho---, because each of them implies full support for the whole Org syntax. As a side node, there are attempts to proceed the other way. For example OrgTbl minor mode, included in Org for historical reasons, edits---a subset of---Org tables in other major modes. Likewise, Orgalist, found in GNU ELPA, ports---a subset of---Org lists to other major modes. None of them equates its native counterpart for the reasons explained above. Conversely, I'm thinking out loud here, there is one external facility that I would like to see integrated into Emacs proper, so major modes, such as Org, could use it. It is Citeproc.el, a library for rendering citations and bibliographies in styles described in the Citation Style Language (CSL). Regards, -- Nicolas Goaziou