From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Karl Fogel Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Question collaborative editing. Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2020 12:35:54 -0500 Message-ID: <87blho7af9.fsf@red-bean.com> References: <87eemuanct.fsf@red-bean.com> <20200924013655.asv2tem25cbwv5et@Ergus> <2ACED303-9A2C-4363-BE56-2E9AF0B8DC85@posteo.net> <20200925002239.fgg3vw2nylltcoyp@Ergus> <219042AC-556D-48CC-8920-82D9BF2BD3AA@aol.com> <3A81FB67-A558-4281-8285-CDD9B01033E3@posteo.net> <1C949FC9-6023-467E-99EC-75D57B08AFB0@gnu.support> <20200929124513.fd745r2txowwbiir@Ergus> Reply-To: Karl Fogel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="21222"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: Emacs developers , Fermin , Noam Postavsky , Jean Louis , Stefan Monnier To: Ergus Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 29 19:37:12 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kNJYu-0005PL-Jj for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 29 Sep 2020 19:37:12 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:56246 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kNJYs-0001AA-Eh for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 29 Sep 2020 13:37:10 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:49664) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kNJXl-0000hP-Jr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Sep 2020 13:36:01 -0400 Original-Received: from newsp.red-bean.com ([45.79.25.59]:60104 helo=sanpietro.red-bean.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kNJXj-0005nm-Jx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Sep 2020 13:36:01 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=red-bean.com; s=202005newsp; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID: In-Reply-To:Date:Reply-To:References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description; bh=B0jUQ6SqT76dJa2JAQKSl6CDKzHdEBt/PG4zqgmVTEw=; t=1601400958; x=1602610558; b=Bj9c/kDFaVD9wxDumAtBMZ4VCAvhMloYgoLgVWUtBvL8pHZrhSt5CUFVNc+0uPrYLgBerQBI+l 8vT/18PZkT3ulu5y+r4uyjD9WMXCjHrejuLxZ7gyGdbc/H7O8wgf1L5LBymWn4+kabyzwo2Z0VP6d VPYPAOZ56nfkhHgVTQ8hAHChsxrKcyaReYh0OaS6+YAdRu9ANt/40w3JXw9U2WieNb8ved6uKmybB zsblWWO/9XOoBGZTWIPywPqmSyOgxS5iZBip/iV8h4u2ZUDvOyU4wNXs5WnaJ2/joSaIwLsp5O8ew zRZo3Lz8mqsqp6jP7ty3MlAGsQyPzLEj5H7FA==; Original-Received: from 99-112-125-163.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net ([99.112.125.163]:59124 helo=floss) by sanpietro.red-bean.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kNJXg-0000jH-0G; Tue, 29 Sep 2020 17:35:56 +0000 In-Reply-To: <20200929124513.fd745r2txowwbiir@Ergus> (Ergus's message of "Tue, 29 Sep 2020 14:45:13 +0200") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=45.79.25.59; envelope-from=kfogel@red-bean.com; helo=sanpietro.red-bean.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/29 13:35:58 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:256725 Archived-At: On 29 Sep 2020, Ergus wrote: >1) On one hand such services require some servers (to work like google >spreadsheet) and need to be provided somehow... something difficult as I >don't think gnu or fsf have resources to maintain a service like that >and provide it. > >2) On the other hand it will be better if the service is somehow >distributed in order to give more privacy-security but also to reduce >the load of the servers... I still can't find any infrastructure we can >use, cause most of the peer-to-peer libraries are for C++, javascript, >Node.js and so on (example: webrtc). Just on yesterday I found >n2n... But I am not a web specialist so it requires a lot of >experimenting time for me. > >3) The other workflow (create a local server for others) is the >"simplest" approach at the moment. But that is a problem for many use >cases due to dynamic ip addreses, firewalls, opening ports and so on. It >is fine for a class room or company, but not for working from home. It's okay if a central server is required, as long as it's free software. In practice, there would be a few "well-known" central servers that people use (the way many people just use https://pad.riseup.net/ for Etherpad today). One of those well-known servers can even be set as the default in the client code in Emacs. If some people want to use a different server instance to collaborate, all they have to do is set that variable, or specify the server through some interactive prompt. This doesn't necessarily imply OT instead of CRDT or vice-versa. Still, despite the "CRDTs are the future" message at https://josephg.com/blog/crdts-are-the-future/, I suspect that for Emacs's purposes OT might be the better solution: simpler to implement and maintain. In any case, I hope development of this feature doesn't block on decentralization. While decentralization would be nice, it's not required; people can set up their own servers when they really need to. Best regards, -Karl