From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Abysmal state of GTK build Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2022 05:02:12 +0200 Message-ID: <87bksagx8r.fsf@telefonica.net> References: <8735dn30if.fsf@gmail.com> <87pmgr8m3t.fsf@yahoo.com> <83pmgr88sk.fsf@gnu.org> <87sfln6t3p.fsf@yahoo.com> <83ilmj873l.fsf@gnu.org> <8735dn6rp7.fsf@yahoo.com> <87edx7hu15.fsf@telefonica.net> <83y1vf6ixp.fsf@gnu.org> <87zgfuhpz8.fsf@telefonica.net> <83o7wa7v6g.fsf@gnu.org> <87r116h7a9.fsf@telefonica.net> <87a67u5s9e.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="16811"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:w6p6BwJfTpTNwgPt3KWSozq+IE4= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Aug 24 05:03:43 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oQggB-0004A0-EA for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 24 Aug 2022 05:03:43 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:49474 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oQggA-0005W7-2E for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 23 Aug 2022 23:03:42 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:34866) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oQgex-0004p6-PY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Aug 2022 23:02:27 -0400 Original-Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]:60126) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oQgev-0008UB-Qq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Aug 2022 23:02:27 -0400 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oQgep-0002DT-UK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 24 Aug 2022 05:02:19 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:293933 Archived-At: Po Lu writes: > Óscar Fuentes writes: > >> What I see on that Merge Request is an occasional contributor adding >> code related to an internal, debug-related environment variable to avoid >> its abuse and then making an insulting reference to the people who are >> advicing others to incur on said abuse. Then another occasional >> contributor comes to close the comments (good) with a blunt phrase >> (bad). > > What abuse? And the change did not add code, it removed code to prevent > users from customizing their own systems in a way that the GTK > developers do not want. Even though it causes no problems, no bug > reports, and in general no trouble at all for anyone, especially for > someone who did not even write the GTK native dialog code. Suppose you discover that some people are writing customization recipes on a popular Wiki page that make use of internal Emacs code for whatever purpose, and you know that once you change that code people will come to complain about you for breaking their setups. Of course, that's no excuse for calling names on anyone, but otherwise what he did is not unreasonable. > Stop making excuses for the blatant disrespect for users and developers > carried by the GTK developers. Here's what the AUTHORS file says: > > The current team (GTK 3 and 4) > ------------------------------ > > Jonas Ådahl > Tim Bäder > Emmanuele Bassi > Chun-wei Fan > Matthias Clasen > Carlos Garnacho > Alexander Larsson > Benjamin Otte > > Evidently, Benjamin Otte is not just an "occasional contributor". Well, I said that he is an occasional contributor after looking at his activity map, which is not very colorful. OTOH, he belonging to the official team may explain why he was not censured. That doesn't mean that other team members sympathize with his action. >> Implying that that episode illustrates the general attitude of that >> community and that it is relevant to how Emacs should decide its >> relation to the products of such community is... unfair, to say it >> politelly. > > Okay, then how about the many MANY times we went to them about the > display disconnect problem, and were very impolitely rebuffed, with our > use case(s) dismissed? There is a bitter disagreement there, for sure. But I've experienced worse dealing with KDE/Qt maintainers and I still am a happy KDE user. That is, if you think that by switching to Qt you will deal with more reasonable and polite people, you are wrong. They are the same kind of human beings, like we are here. > Or recently: > > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2022-08/msg00687.html > > Where they made the ridiculous statement that it is unsafe for Emacs to > auto-save data in Emacs core if the Wayland compositor shuts down. There is no assurance whatsoever that you will not get that type of reaction from a Qt developer. I had similar discussions with highly competent maintainers of top-tier projects and it requires empathy, politeness, patience and skillful dialogue. Not to say that this guarantees success, but starting with the attitude of "I'm obviously right and you are doing wrong" poses a big risk of a strong-headed rejection.