From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Emanuel Berg Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Shrinking the C core Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2023 01:03:28 +0200 Message-ID: <87bkeeoqf3.fsf@dataswamp.org> References: <87ledwx7sh.fsf@yahoo.com> <877cpfybhf.fsf@yahoo.com> <873503y66i.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="24454"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:fMwIahtrlybkvsBsZoHOp5hFy3o= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Sep 07 06:56:31 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qe74B-00069h-68 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 07 Sep 2023 06:56:31 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qe73N-0000vt-Nf; Thu, 07 Sep 2023 00:55:42 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qe1Yj-0004XZ-B5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Sep 2023 19:03:41 -0400 Original-Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qe1Yg-0000XM-MZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Sep 2023 19:03:41 -0400 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qe1Ye-0005md-P8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 07 Sep 2023 01:03:36 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Mail-Copies-To: never Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 07 Sep 2023 00:55:38 -0400 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:310230 Archived-At: Alan Mackenzie wrote: >> I don't know why you reject them as clumsy, but why does it >> matter to us if a tool includes features we don't use? > > It matters a very great deal. In practice you cannot avoid > "using" these features if you have to understand or debug > somebody else's code. But it is up to him/her how [s]he writes his/her code. >> I don't know if I understand it correctly, but CL was made >> so other Lisps can be abstracted on top of it; so we use >> those features to abstract stuff on top of those lengthy >> verbose functions? In other words we can hide those keyword >> params behind elispy abstractions if we don't like them? > > That's complexity and bloat. Far better not to have them in > the first place. Not everyone is a minimalist and certainly Emacs and Elisp allow for maximalists as well. >>> best avoided. All those keyword arguments! I intentionally >>> excluded tham from Emacs and I am not going to let >>> them in. >> >> I don't want to be impolite, but they are already in; via >> cl-lib.el. > > Yes. There was a time not so long ago when cl.el was banned > from use in our Lisp code, except for at compile time. > Our Emacs Lisp was small, simple to understand, and easy to > learn. Now things in cl-lib.el get used as if they are just > a normal part of Emacs Lisp. They are a normal part of Emacs Lisp by definition. Check out cl-lib.el and see if you can find any CL there. This file is part of GNU Emacs! -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal