From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Emanuel Berg Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [External] : Re: Shrinking the C core Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2023 04:46:45 +0200 Message-ID: <87bkd07gbu.fsf@dataswamp.org> References: <87il8betof.fsf@dataswamp.org> <83fs3dgxv8.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="29804"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:0uvLHIEllxeNsosc0FXzNrIS6XQ= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Oct 15 07:10:01 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qrtO3-0007Zf-U3 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 15 Oct 2023 07:09:59 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qrtNe-0005l2-Tc; Sun, 15 Oct 2023 01:09:35 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qrr9i-0004FA-TM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Oct 2023 22:47:02 -0400 Original-Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qrr9g-0005T5-6Z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Oct 2023 22:47:02 -0400 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qrr9d-0004rG-Ep for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Oct 2023 04:46:57 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Mail-Copies-To: never Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -15 X-Spam_score: -1.6 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 15 Oct 2023 01:09:24 -0400 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:311466 Archived-At: Richard Stallman wrote: >> 466 out of 1637 Lisp files in Emacs require cl-lib (some of >> them only during compilation, i.e. they use only the >> macros). > > If a file uses cl only during compilation (for macros) it is > not much of a problem. How many use it at run time? > > I reported one file a few weeks ago that is always (or > nearly always) loaded and uses cl-lib, forcin it to be > nearly always loaded too. That should be fixed. But if it is shipped and included with vanilla Emacs, which it is, how can it be either any more or any less (dis)encouraged for use than anything else included on the same premises? If something isn't part of vanilla Emacs one can maybe say "see if you can do without it, because if you use it, it has to be brought in externally adding complexity" - perhaps. But it _is_ included so in terms of technology it is on the same level as everything else included. Are we gonna have one big toolbox containing a bunch of tools, but on certain tools put on little stickers saying "don't use this"? -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal