From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Emanuel Berg Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What's missing in ELisp that makes people want to use cl-lib? Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2023 15:19:37 +0100 Message-ID: <87bkc4jpja.fsf@dataswamp.org> References: <46ab3c7d-d820-4bb4-8ec4-97c614d7c8a0@alphapapa.net> <871qd8sfdx.fsf@posteo.net> <838r7g8pys.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkcbrgnr.fsf@posteo.net> <25924.21015.19614.951576@orion.rgrjr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="24416"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:TDoNh43p2IPHxEYr65KUS10tetE= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Nov 08 15:27:52 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r0jX3-00064j-Vy for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 08 Nov 2023 15:27:49 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r0jWN-0007jq-RJ; Wed, 08 Nov 2023 09:27:08 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r0jPJ-0001Wu-O5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Nov 2023 09:19:49 -0500 Original-Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r0jPH-0003Bm-V1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Nov 2023 09:19:49 -0500 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r0jPF-0005AR-Da for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Nov 2023 15:19:45 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Mail-Copies-To: never Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 08 Nov 2023 09:27:06 -0500 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312346 Archived-At: Richard Stallman wrote: >> So, Richard, I see that you are fighting to preserve >> something real and important -- your vision of Emacs Lisp >> as a coherent language -- and I believe that may be your >> prerogative as its creator. But I also believe you may be >> a decade or two too late. > > It is not too late if we find a few more contributors who > appreciate what is at stake [...] Maybe, but how? We have `cl-incf' and can't remove it as that would break the CL emulation interface. To the people who use it, and don't care about the CL emulation part necessarily, they just think it is useful, we can't say instead use (setq var (1+ var)) because we can't make the case that that is in any way better than (cl-incf var) We can however add a new function, "incf", that does the same thing, only does not rely upon cl-lib in any way. But how would this help the maintainers? Instead of familiarizing themselves with `cl-incf', and all other functions provided by cl-lib that are in use and people will continue to use, they will have to learn the new functions replacing them? So what difference will that make? -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal