From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What's missing in ELisp that makes people want to use cl-lib? 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID d823c8c25af22468b345bb2cea6900fb; Sun, 12 Nov 2023 07:15:40 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <878r73g2m0.fsf@dataswamp.org> (Emanuel Berg's message of "Sun, 12 Nov 2023 02:52:07 +0100") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21896 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.189.148; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic314-22.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312641 Archived-At: Emanuel Berg writes: > As we have seen here and in the stats I provided earlier in > the thread how much cl-lib is used, it follows a lot of people > have been able to put it into good use. It is not too > complicated for anyone, and often on the contrary makes the > code shorter and easier to read. For you. Not for Alan, Richard, Eli, or me, or for scores of others. If four active Emacs developers have expressed their discontent at an undoubtedly popular feature, there there must be more users scratching their heads in the face of cl-lib code among the ranks of the disenfranchised Emacs users deterred from voicing their concerns as to the Emacs development process by our allegedly unfamiliar development practices, or so the frequently-cited truism goes. The self-anointed warriors who generally take every opportunity to fight for their representation are uncharacteristically taciturn in this regard. But that is by the by, since ultimately the practices we adopt are subject to the concerns of people who must read this code; and alas, very few of our users do, for largely unrelated reasons. > If a bunch of guys take on the entire Emacs source and for that reason > want a more simple Elisp, then that's their opinion based on their > particular point of view. But cl-lib is still awesome and makes the > code better, not worse. You are entitled to that view, but when this "bunch of guys" have to tread through such code, they are, in like fashion, entitled to a say in how it is written. Correct?