From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal: new default bindings for winner and windmove Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2024 21:40:06 +0800 Message-ID: <87bk3r22x5.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <7133BE83-064B-43A4-A193-61376605222C@dancol.org> <055E6E92-6971-409E-A106-7E0C64FEF856@dancol.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="39942"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: Alan Mackenzie , Stefan Kangas , Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Daniel Colascione Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Jun 23 15:41:08 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sLNSt-000AHO-Q3 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 23 Jun 2024 15:41:07 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sLNSH-0004uP-9r; Sun, 23 Jun 2024 09:40:29 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sLNSF-0004uC-S4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 23 Jun 2024 09:40:27 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic313-56.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.185.31]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sLNSD-0006rS-Mx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 23 Jun 2024 09:40:27 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1719150023; bh=lEdMICBbD3c71zNLg77kQTgrzePYuPZ/GOFH8uGrO6w=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=q+KXbkEGiQ/MTJtXwsxPhwmXbX7/poFNxXQQuGuybyabYT3/6XI0yiXKrYBHoXU7VKchbbDNYaNVuNSPJD8ATJ+KmcFLfZ6kZbF5xi1iMT3y/ODIOd4+gUPcrgt9kVK5EgWHiJ88s9Sj2JBpvTjYaZR6i1noFs/mNDJVzp0RhYQi4R23unvA+1ukonVFXzeE6MAsd9LcfyweubbvG+NjMwjgdrF5yYdODRFEdR/OCD2hJBh40SQ351/c/1D/lwT7aN+BZwV1V/COisYwp5C828zbME1w3wNwBkyR9ZX7Bi0oEk5Llq+7RTrObJxi275jnhERaHn8kiRU9vebkSwiTQ== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1719150023; bh=KNWa5GPvIbn5NW0jajJkds+A0Hyj/Oa0i2HMDtIeIL0=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=LvgJ60EfB9FX8NcNkjh6e8RsSfPpu+eNPRAoNPw4FbgAQk0uqybe8Pk8ZgdrlI0ZyyWXvq+4BW12lvthj0qVHd+uaAZLie4X+1jECdnDo53LliRs179zk0NLsZB3R69LnDLBAKWzJY2zrhmO1taAkYMpP2SKHvS+/kkoxakqS2TuWw77RX2cbd3H2gpwa9o959NlMpjo7CKb76IZfbqDFJbn02ua/bzn30W5SYWiAd9Yqkr3Vnf7XVaG6rfg9kyGKRfd6YkvoFHxyw7nUdt7/viDi+E0vKv7tlT7JVW82yFUU8KOenvPFjiSdKPl9G+9xjmE0wRcRpdNL6Bd9FQzqA== X-YMail-OSG: C0mv0SMVM1kJyVULC0TT.9fc9smmWPmYV2xdXEHf.C0rQag4vpDNfCGXlcXpFxE nQFe_fkNZkKUch8SgmB0xanrXGXogNs.9PUwsTtg1826CLS0M7eN0Ay7t2YiVgK2fn4F5vexFvrQ WGxQXwlPD5IHyakzZF54CzUce9iTWG2.unfTb5s8wafLAtcU9fcyz3c_nkS5YtiFzC.xi24LCaV1 _wSHU393AIOnJ5mkH0xMab7vhhhc_uvyNVY1vpM4UkCn9QCOI8RfuI6kotUEybIqt8UPQegrIggp VHXQwPT_vDU16eo7VhOaHmnaVmnk9E9ysDiZTeUfsfnvmChIM8HFOikMJuzVZofuHmHUC2.vuczW 5EM0aSbak1O7IjfBypUPgM16TWV_RmIYd9FHSfsbImlgCiZk0.r2xyg82uF59I1I1BbcrzlDt3gq 83EExYMiiL1RnXazgYnLjRTuYZfTOjDVYXXTEwbHC_BW.Rsv4ObI34pzdnAHaZ41FmOon5T8g3mX Xr0medUuP8zghTsCDiJ1GrRrCc0h_ESERPgaP0fKq39byCGT6xABEwo5G7lOo5YoBdj96Eso_lx_ D5wvEwPC2knMC4xy7VQya82pMyjRPZue3NvGen9sZ2S2SmOGo2Vdrbcs.uOoT7G88s_vEK9H1R7s 0gUmUdKQLUVD4iYPq0R7zIa4UZ_CXGtKX.cFJ7pbn9SZgFcrHcvMLP.2TFYN5qp.4i1IOt4nHxip QMwHHskfCfRS42iiEBkNyv46rC2NUN9YSFtqq5NIKy9iWjS_6_8Q0cFQyLimbHsqUm8I6_qfn3h. 1FXll7J6ydu2FLj.ZrpbfYywy8TZuw4VdpGH3Tfcu4 X-Sonic-MF: X-Sonic-ID: 5b454006-483f-49e1-9818-08835649de1e Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic313.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 23 Jun 2024 13:40:23 +0000 Original-Received: by hermes--production-sg3-7b469d9f6-2fcg5 (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 8473528d8cacd469496fd2fe989b4c74; Sun, 23 Jun 2024 13:40:18 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <055E6E92-6971-409E-A106-7E0C64FEF856@dancol.org> (Daniel Colascione's message of "Sun, 23 Jun 2024 08:57:36 -0400") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.22407 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.185.31; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic313-56.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:320523 Archived-At: Daniel Colascione writes: > So? Nobody is preventing those users doing what they want with their > key bindings. You're making a general purpose argument against having > default key bindings at all. Why don't we just ship Emacs with an > empty global keymap so we're not imposing on anyone? Replace "having" with "introducing" and you should find that this line of argument is generally sound. After all these years, all the commands that justify being bound by default have already received bindings in the default keymaps, and plenty of commands that are well in excess of this criterion. > Metrics with nontrivial opt-in suffer from selection bias. The sort of > person who goes out of his way to enable telemetry is the sort of > person who's going to do more customization than the average user. Yes. That does not render mandatory collection of metrics any the less morally objectionable in a computer program, nor imposing arbitrary changes on users any more reasonable. > So? How does providing default windmove bindings make your life worse? I have bound C-x 4 to ffap-other-window, C-x 4 i to ibuffer-other-window, and the remaining arrow keys to other commands that fall into the same -other-window scheme. I trust there is a multitude of users besides Alan and myself with their own purposes for these keys. > They're not convenient for anyone if left unbound. Scarce are the keys that are not bound by default, and therefore may be customized by users without risking departures in their Emacs sessions from the expectations of users trained and pastured on uncustomized sessions. This is just one, and by far not the most compelling, of many objections to introducing new default keybindings, but one of which a recent example comes to mind: C-x x u has for many years been bound in my sessions to a command that deletes a buffer's undo list, usually in the interests of security. The consequences of a stranger's unsuspectingly typing the same to invoke rename-uniquely might easily have been catastrophic.