From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Juri Linkov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: GTK file selector Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 22:59:54 +0200 Organization: JURTA Message-ID: <87aceyf7ed.fsf@jurta.org> References: <1134552456.439fe58850f31@imp5-g19.free.fr> <878xuma53q.fsf@jurta.org> <17313.37186.344268.487103@parhasard.net> <87d5jxsgib.fsf@jurta.org> <17314.42778.220813.47226@parhasard.net> <17315.7877.155144.973236@kahikatea.snap.net.nz> <85irtoadgf.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <17316.35545.44735.66533@parhasard.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1134940972 26827 80.91.229.2 (18 Dec 2005 21:22:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 21:22:52 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Dec 18 22:22:43 2005 Return-path: Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Eo5yA-00073O-5o for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 18 Dec 2005 22:21:26 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Eo5yy-0001fd-KN for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 18 Dec 2005 16:22:16 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Eo5yp-0001fY-SP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 18 Dec 2005 16:22:07 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Eo5yo-0001fM-7m for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 18 Dec 2005 16:22:07 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Eo5yo-0001fJ-4k for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 18 Dec 2005 16:22:06 -0500 Original-Received: from [194.126.101.98] (helo=mail.neti.ee) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Eo61d-0004fJ-L9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 18 Dec 2005 16:25:02 -0500 Original-Received: from mail.neti.ee (80-235-33-160-dsl.mus.estpak.ee [80.235.33.160]) by Relayhost1.neti.ee (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1C80191E; Sun, 18 Dec 2005 23:21:28 +0200 (EET) Original-To: Aidan Kehoe In-Reply-To: <17316.35545.44735.66533@parhasard.net> (Aidan Kehoe's message of "Sat, 17 Dec 2005 23:02:01 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.110004 (No Gnus v0.4) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-2.2.1 (20041222) (Debian) at neti.ee X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:48013 Archived-At: > > The filename entry field (with available TAB completion like in Emacs)= was > > a very useful feature. Neither C-l nor a small text box that appears > > after starting typing is an acceptable replacement. > > What the Gnome people have implemented is an acceptable replacement; it > gives the same functionality as the old but without its confusing feature= s. These "confusing" features were very useful. > If you don=E2=80=99t accept that, then I=E2=80=99ve no confidence that yo= u=E2=80=99ve ever used the > new file selection dialog. Of course, I've used the new file selection dialog in GTK applications other than Emacs configured to use GTK. When I encountered the new file selection dialog for the first time, I wasted my time searching on the Web how to return a good old filename entry field. Fortunately, many mailing lists were full of cursing at the new file dialog, so it was easy to find information about C-l which is not intuitive. The new file selection dialog is a failure of Gnome developers to design an intuitive and convenient UI for beginners as well as for power users. > > > And yes, making GNU Emacs behave more like a Win32 app, like Notepad, > > > _will_ make na=C3=AFve users happy. Look at the success of CUA-mode. > >=20 > > CUA-mode doesn't disable useful Emacs features. > > What on Earth gave you the idea that I suggested disabling useful feature= s? Removing the filename entry field was disabling a useful feature. > > > Hang round with Win32 users looking for an advanced editor, and they= =E2=80=99ll > > > go for Notepad++ long before GNU Emacs, because all their habits from > > > Notepad work in Notepad++, and not in emacs. > >=20 > > Notepad++ is not easier to use for naive users than Emacs. > > It=E2=80=99s much easier to use for a na=C3=AFve Win32 user than is any e= macs, and in > 2005 the number of users who come to Emacs before encountering Win32 and > gaining some experience is infinitesimally small compared to the number w= ith > previous Win32 experience.=20 Could you elaborate a bit what makes it easier for na=C3=AFve Windows users to use than emacsen? A simple user interface? A familiar user interface? Easy configuration? Something else? > > > Emacs is more featureful, but not enough to overcome the pain of fin= ding > > > out what CUA-mode is > >=20 > > The top-level menu item in the Options menu that enables CUA-mode > > and its tooltip are self-descriptive enough. > > I disagree.=20 The current menu item for enabling CUA-mode is "C-x/C-c/C-v Cut and Paste (= CUA)" and the tooltip is "Use C-z/C-x/C-c/C-v keys for undo/cut/copy/paste". This gives a good hint about what is CUA-mode for. > > > and doing all the other donkey-work to have the editor behave like w= hat > > > they=E2=80=99re used to. > >=20 > > Experts can do this easily anyway. > > And an editor that makes it unnecessary is still more attractive than one > where it must be done.=20 An editor that makes customization unnecessary? I never heard about such an editor. As far as I recall even Notepad has one customizable option - to toggle line wrapping :-) > > > and minimal consideration for GUI users in this age of 17" > > > screens. Among other reasons. > > > > > > Eclipse, VIM or Notepad++ seem to be what most of the power users I > > > know who chose an advanced editor recently are using. > >=20 > > I don't think VIM belongs to the category of Notepad-like editors. > > And? I do know some Unix power-users.=20 You still haven't mentioned advantages of these editors for power users over emacsen. --=20 Juri Linkov http://www.jurta.org/emacs/