From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Juri Linkov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: delete-selection-mode Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 03:16:36 +0200 Organization: JURTA Message-ID: <87aau1xiiz.fsf@mail.jurta.org> References: <87ocitw2dl.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <201003130001.o2D01FFQ003489@godzilla.ics.uci.edu> <87vdd1yqe4.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <87eijjzrkd.fsf_-_@mail.jurta.org> <20100317143519.GB4381@muc.de> <22603146-A346-4FC2-8D74-5D6047865C3A@mit.edu> <87r5nf8s7q.fsf@siart.de> <87pr2ygbii.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87tys9180s.fsf@catnip.gol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1269220944 12341 80.91.229.12 (22 Mar 2010 01:22:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 01:22:24 +0000 (UTC) Cc: David Kastrup , rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Miles Bader Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Mar 22 02:22:20 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NtWLR-0004bF-93 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 02:22:17 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60441 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NtWLQ-0001Ga-I9 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 21:22:16 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NtWKY-0000gd-Gf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 21:21:22 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=47678 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NtWKX-0000fK-6E for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 21:21:22 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NtWKV-0007sP-RN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 21:21:21 -0400 Original-Received: from smtp-out2.starman.ee ([85.253.0.4]:36294 helo=mx2.starman.ee) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NtWKS-0007ru-RQ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 21:21:17 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by Amavisd-New at mx2.starman.ee Original-Received: from mail.starman.ee (82.131.30.14.cable.starman.ee [82.131.30.14]) by mx2.starman.ee (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98E903F40C8; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 03:21:10 +0200 (EET) In-Reply-To: <87tys9180s.fsf@catnip.gol.com> (Miles Bader's message of "Mon, 22 Mar 2010 10:04:35 +0900") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:122434 Archived-At: > Richard Stallman writes: >> Let's make shift-selection and mouse-selection _identical_ with regard >> to the outcome, with regard to visuals and semantics. >> >> That seems like a good idea to me. > > _All_ types of visible selection should be the same, including t-m-m > (C-SPC + movement) selections, to the greatest extent possible. > > Having multiple "types" of selection that are > sorta-the-same-but-sorta-different is just going to make Emacs harder to > use for everybody, and harder to learn for beginners. > > If a beginner tries to use (superior) Emacs-style marking (t-m-m), > suddenly habits which seemed to work for them when using the mouse will > fail. This is bad. > > If an expert user wants to use DEL to delete a t-m-m region, that will > fail, for no good reason. This is stupid. > > Yeah, I know, mouse-selection is currently "special". It shouldn't > be -- that was a bad decision. Adding shift-selection to the mix just > makes things worse. Unfortunately, shift-selection is already fundamentally different from selecting the region with C-SPC and C-x C-x. With shift-selection typing a key that is not shift-translated deactivates the region. It seems this difference is impossible to avoid because typing non-shifted keys is how beginners expect to deselect the region. -- Juri Linkov http://www.jurta.org/emacs/