From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs contributions, C and Lisp Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 18:53:15 +0100 Message-ID: <87a9db15v8.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> References: <87ppmhecd8.fsf@yandex.ru> <87y50z90pd.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87txbn8r6x.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <8338j717oe.fsf@gnu.org> <87zjlf6tdx.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83sir7yue7.fsf@gnu.org> <8761o3dlak.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83bnxuzyl4.fsf@gnu.org> <871tyqes5q.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87a9ddg7o8.fsf@engster.org> <87d2i9ee8t.fsf@engster.org> <874n3ke1qn.fsf@engster.org> <87vbvzcjv9.fsf@engster.org> <87iorz18fy.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1393610022 6298 80.91.229.3 (28 Feb 2014 17:53:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 17:53:42 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Emacs developers To: Juanma Barranquero Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Feb 28 18:53:51 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1WJRd9-0001i6-4v for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 18:53:51 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:52588 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WJRd8-00063w-Pi for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 12:53:50 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:42816) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WJRcu-0005oJ-2t for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 12:53:37 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WJRct-0008Rh-1V for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 12:53:36 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:47176) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WJRcs-0008RW-TS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 12:53:34 -0500 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54349 helo=lola) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WJRcs-0001g8-Gm; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 12:53:34 -0500 Original-Received: by lola (Postfix, from userid 1000) id AFACDE40E9; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 18:53:15 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: (Juanma Barranquero's message of "Fri, 28 Feb 2014 18:31:53 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:169954 Archived-At: Juanma Barranquero writes: > On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 5:57 PM, David Kastrup wrote: > >> In this case, the line is between using Emacs' leverage for preserving >> GCC's importance over betting the horse on a product with an ultimate >> fate out of the GNU project's control, and out of its original authors' >> and current community's control. > > It would be interesting to measure (somehow ;-) whether that "Emacs > leverage" is enough to preserve GCC's importance. Shrug. GNU Emacs is the application for which the GPL was written and which started the GNU project. Sometimes you just have to do your best and be prepared for success as well as for failure. > I mean, if using the clang libraries allows much powerful, > developer-friendly environments for C/C++ programmers, do we think > that a significant number of them will still choose GCC because of > Emacs? That's not the interesting question. Do we think that a relevant number of people will choose to work on GCC until it works for that purpose in stock Emacs rather than just install another compiler? The history of several Windows-only features that were only admitted into Emacs proper once they were supported reasonably well under other platforms would suggest that the answer to this kind of question may very well be "yes". > If the answer is "yes", Richard's position strenghtens GCC without > prejudice for Emacs. If the answer is "not", that position hurts Emacs > without helping GCC. You are trying to view Emacs and GCC in isolation. Both are core parts of the GNU system and we don't want the GNU system to become one where working with one GNU program would be a reason to prefer using a non-GNU program over another GNU program. Emacs and GCC are the oldest central components and cornerstones of the GNU project. If any two applications have reason to stick up for each other, it are those. We don't want Emacs to become more useful to the detriment of GCC. Of course, this is the Emacs developer list so it is to be expected that some list members are less than enthused about the principle underlying this kind of decision. But not taking the underlying principle into account when dissenting means that the dissent is only relevant to a part of the decisionmaking, and the decisionmaking is exactly about finding a _balance_. -- David Kastrup