From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs contributions, C and Lisp Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 06:20:12 +0100 Organization: Organization?!? Message-ID: <87a9d5i5mb.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> References: <83k3cr58o2.fsf@gnu.org> <530BAEE5.9040004@online.de> <87ppmatkpe.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87wqgfsxsr.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87wqgf37n4.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87ha7gshu9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <871tyko9l5.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87eh2ks897.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fvn0mk25.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87bnxorlol.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <877g8bmxal.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <877g8asfl0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <8738iyjrl3.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87mwh5ridq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87wqg9hn10.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <878uspaku2.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87k3c9hflv.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <8738ixacdc.fsf@wanadoo.es> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1393996833 25295 80.91.229.3 (5 Mar 2014 05:20:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 05:20:33 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Mar 05 06:20:42 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1WL4G1-0005N2-D4 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 06:20:41 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:50240 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WL4G0-0001J8-V3 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 00:20:40 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:40993) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WL4Fs-0001J1-74 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 00:20:37 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WL4Fm-0004od-OT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 00:20:32 -0500 Original-Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:53461) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WL4Fm-0004oU-DW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 00:20:26 -0500 Original-Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1WL4Fk-00058F-5u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 06:20:24 +0100 Original-Received: from x2f42c08.dyn.telefonica.de ([2.244.44.8]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 06:20:24 +0100 Original-Received: from dak by x2f42c08.dyn.telefonica.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 06:20:24 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 56 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: x2f42c08.dyn.telefonica.de X-Face: 2FEFf>]>q>2iw=B6, xrUubRI>pR&Ml9=ao@P@i)L:\urd*t9M~y1^:+Y]'C0~{mAl`oQuAl \!3KEIp?*w`|bL5qr,H)LFO6Q=qx~iH4DN; i"; /yuIsqbLLCh/!U#X[S~(5eZ41to5f%E@'ELIi$t^ Vc\LWP@J5p^rst0+('>Er0=^1{]M9!p?&:\z]|;&=NP3AhB!B_bi^]Pfkw User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:ewiFCKsOqk1WrKW7jQ+D6cUvD6A= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.229.3 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:170150 Archived-At: Óscar Fuentes writes: > David Kastrup writes: > >> But it's impossible to get things in perspective if everybody insists on >> misrepresenting Richard and ascribing absurdities to him. >> >> If you refuse to see the issues that are to be balanced, you can't >> complain when your input on choosing the balance is discarded as >> worthless. > > David, with all due respect: I think that people like you and RMS who > don't know the issue at all from the user's POV (and even loudly despise > C++) have no right for telling anyone that they do not understand the > matter at hand. As a lifetime C++ programmer who follows GCC, Emacs and > Clang communities since a very long time, I don't think that there is any further point to answer you if you insist on considering everybody with a different viewpoint as clueless. You may have been following the GCC and Emacs communities since a very long time, but Richard has been founding and leading them as well as the GNU project exactly because he has been seeing the issue from the users' point of view. It is an aspect of users he is catering for that you refuse to see. That is perfectly within your rights. But you cannot meaningfully contribute feedback for decisions that are focused about maintaining the longterm viability of free software if you refuse to consider the reasoning that lead to the existence of the GNU project in the first place. > it is obvious to me that RMS stance will keep GCC and Emacs back for > no gain on any aspect, including user's freedom. The user is free to install software against the long-term interest of the GNU project without the blessing of GNU infrastructure like its servers and other official distribution channels. His freedom is not hampered by us not lying about what is and what is not in GNU's long-term interests. Making Emacs depend on Clang for features clearly is not. > It is possible that I'm missing some nuances of your political POV, > but you are uninterested on the whole technical landscape and its > implications. And please don't say that technical issues are secondary > here, because understanding those is fundamental for choosing the > correct policy. You are like catholic priests dictating how people > should deal with sexuality. See what they achieve. You manage to stoop to insinuations of child molestation. Impressive. It is probably my fault for not cutting off the "discussion" sooner, but then I lack Richard's experience about how to deal with getting ranted at. I am sure that there are other people who will just love to discuss matters with you in that style, but I'm out. -- David Kastrup