From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs Lisp's future Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:09:15 +0200 Message-ID: <87a95xs0j8.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> References: <87wq97i78i.fsf@earlgrey.lan> <87sijqxzr2.fsf@newcastle.ac.uk> <878uliwajb.fsf@taylan.uni.cx> <87lhpitg6t.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87wq92uhwh.fsf@taylan.uni.cx> <87wq91si9s.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87oauduue2.fsf@taylan.uni.cx> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1411034977 11380 80.91.229.3 (18 Sep 2014 10:09:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:09:37 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Taylan Ulrich Bayirli/Kammer Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Sep 18 12:09:31 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1XUYeY-0005UH-4j for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:09:30 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:49528 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XUYeX-0001QO-AT for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 06:09:29 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:57620) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XUYeS-0001Na-9e for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 06:09:25 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XUYeP-0004Tv-I5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 06:09:24 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:45757) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XUYeP-0004TD-Cv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 06:09:21 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51387 helo=lola) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XUYeK-0001Bq-0i; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 06:09:16 -0400 Original-Received: by lola (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A586CE07B0; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:09:15 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: <87oauduue2.fsf@taylan.uni.cx> (Taylan Ulrich Bayirli's message of "Thu, 18 Sep 2014 11:53:41 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.4.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 208.118.235.10 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:174492 Archived-At: Taylan Ulrich Bayirli/Kammer writes: > David Kastrup writes: > >> The music typesetter GNU LilyPond is one of the oldest GNU projects >> using GUILE. So far, its attempts to port from GUILE 1.8 to GUILE 2.0 >> have crashed and burnt (current state is inexplicable scoping problems >> and crashes in random locations). As a consequence, it will get removed >> from Debian next February when Debian discontinues support of GUILE 1.8. >> LilyPond's lead developer (yours truly) has been banned from posting on >> the GUILE developer list years ago. There have been few private offers >> from GUILE developers to help with the porting, but after being provided >> the necessary information, the contacts have gone dead. >> >> LilyPond is the only GUILE-based GNU project that I know of that >> integrates Scheme as tightly into the basic system and language as it >> would be expected from Emacs, defining dozens of native data types in >> C++. And it does not even have the Elisp/Scheme discrepancy to deal >> with. >> >> It is an actively maintained project with dozens of developers and >> thousands of users and will disappear from Debian-based distributions >> next year. >> >> If Emacs developers would happen to fall from grace and/or the GUILE >> developers get tired of dealing with the expectable host of problems and >> just stop answering calls because of the initial enthusiasm wearing down >> under a lack of man power, I don't see what would promise a >> substantially different ending there. > > It's unfortunate that LilyPond was hit by the 2.0 overhaul so badly. > > Fortunately, such an overhaul is very unlikely to ever happen again. I think you are misunderstanding the problem. The problem is not that technical problems occured after large changes. The problem is that GUILE developers cannot be bothered with the fallout in affected projects. LilyPond is not a fringe project. It is by far the largest GNU project using GUILE. > And even in the fringe case that it does, it would not affect Elisp as > much (or at all) in the way the 2.0 overhaul affected Scheme. GUILE development will cater better for Elisp than for Scheme? That does sound peculiar. Is this pitch being made anywhere else apart from the Emacs developer list? -- David Kastrup