From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: New maintainer Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2015 09:43:48 +0200 Message-ID: <87a8rv86ob.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> References: <560CCEBA.9080607@online.de> <874miapdhs.fsf@openmailbox.org> <8737xuuw2y.fsf@rabkins.net> <87lhbmkrle.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87si5r22qh.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1444203876 9662 80.91.229.3 (7 Oct 2015 07:44:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 07:44:36 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Oct 07 09:44:31 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZjjOj-000079-QS for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 07 Oct 2015 09:44:26 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:56009 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZjjOi-0003sy-Qf for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 07 Oct 2015 03:44:24 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:52805) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZjjOd-0003pr-FL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 07 Oct 2015 03:44:20 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZjjOb-0002Mk-Hm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 07 Oct 2015 03:44:19 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:32803) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZjjOb-0002Mg-EC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 07 Oct 2015 03:44:17 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46622 helo=lola) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ZjjOa-0007oc-Pu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 07 Oct 2015 03:44:17 -0400 Original-Received: by lola (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4F088DF371; Wed, 7 Oct 2015 09:43:48 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: (John Wiegley's message of "Tue, 06 Oct 2015 23:43:56 -0700") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:191035 Archived-At: John Wiegley writes: > I can't help but think that unless the FSF has more to offer than its > ideals, its technical decisions are going to render it obsolete. The FSF never had substantially more to offer than its ideals. All the rest has been provided by volunteers and donations. While Richard has thrown a substantial amount of his own work and money and time into it at the start, in the overall scheme that's not much more than a catalyst. > Progress waits for no man, and the world is changing more and more > rapidly. There is a reason Clang is eating GCC's lunch: because the > needs of a larger community demand a better free compiler. The FSF has no control over the direction of Clang, technical or with regard to licensing. A whole lot of software is "eating GNU's lunch" in a number of technical categories. GNU started out with everybody "eating its lunch". The mission of the GNU project is to provide a coherent whole with freedoms that cannot be subverted. Apple's XCode environment is based on a free compiler, Clang, but is licensed in a way where you may not run it on anything but Apple computers. _That's_ how you really eat the lunch of free software. Having Emacs integrate with XCode for developing code in a manner that cannot be done with the GNU system would be self-defeating. It's the point of the GPL to be hard to subvert against the cause of free software. But the GPL is not a philosophical authority but a legal tool. Software licensed under it can be used according to our goals or against them. Where the only uses are weakening our cause, there is no point in being the front-runner. Everybody may fork Emacs (or just provide his own packages) who wants to work on goals not helping the GNU project, but there is no point in the core of Emacs relying on resources and the blessing of the FSF to do so. > Emacs is still a fantastic editor, but it's old and its age is > showing. If we remain competitive, it could stay awesome for another > 30 years; but if we avoid progress to further non-technical agendas, I > think it will drive people AWAY from the GNU project, not bind them > more tightly to it. That argument is more than 30 years old, and many parts of the GNU project have taken second place to other software a whole lot of the time. But the front leaders wither and die and get replaced by others. GNU sticks around. Emacs sticks around. Its largest traditional competitor is "vi" and it is factually gone, replaced by the most popular free vi clone of the decade (currently vim). Yes, we'll not end up in first place on technical merit lots of the time because ending up in first place is not the first priority. The first priority is to provide a free cohesive system with essential parts nominally and effectively under the GPL so that its use as a building block will lead to more systems honoring and providing software freedom. Taking custody of that may be a nuisance if you don't care or even disagree. But even though it's an essential part of the job, it should not turn out a permanent distraction. And if it does, one should try finding a solution or compromise that manages to serve the conflicting priorities better. -- David Kastrup