From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Taiju HIGASHI Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [PATCH] Add an option to not reduce vocabulary of the Japanese Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2022 15:43:51 +0900 Message-ID: <87a6auz1p4.fsf@taiju.info> References: <87r146o2rt.fsf@taiju.info> <8335gme0ml.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="19457"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.1 (gnu/linux) Cc: Kenichi Handa , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Jun 03 08:49:48 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nx180-0004tH-Bq for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 03 Jun 2022 08:49:48 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:58282 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nx17z-0003AH-08 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 03 Jun 2022 02:49:47 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:58886) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nx12L-000215-Uy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 03 Jun 2022 02:43:58 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pf1-x42e.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::42e]:36484) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nx12K-0000eb-49 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 03 Jun 2022 02:43:57 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pf1-x42e.google.com with SMTP id 15so6547355pfy.3 for ; Thu, 02 Jun 2022 23:43:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=taiju-info.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version; bh=HCu+AIlHRIDH3HgjQvwnM6WRfRHP1aTzVL5L1rygbFM=; b=QlfTdt/w8ctAG+38XVpe/6N7mpT9tOP/cvIdUTCE/ElWi+9eO0MjTeZqUizQoz2ImC 2O2whCGGtG7+n+x8FdXtVklRaNtHaBITQzGIWiK49OLx87B2Fb9DCBBuDIZznkJcac51 3Xu+Hz02ODjJhm/7IxXSjzFrWIPgNfuKYYXOioneY0ug2EJrRXxX1Of8CbVGsGexE4g+ 4M8aFzHkK6Ez8nvbv++0h4n/Chg7uOiEQndAP8lHRTUH/L8R2gu4CZB3dlKVr2es+GLd FxirQSHgY0asKJM3qpFrNB+SpA3YZy7FwCpamwHyLCuB71CsiRwNshqHLeWIB+EGy3zp CwqA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=HCu+AIlHRIDH3HgjQvwnM6WRfRHP1aTzVL5L1rygbFM=; b=m93SAzRvHtsSb2WoyMO/cGya9+GGVmnY84/3mij3SFsZxcoLgYzKDRQhqMHF7YBbYh QJ7yhU1SSN/YVUDVOmvKH88aUWT8PfSgN6lqvTDnKSdSFWyfDKkKbw+Zi2S0dYrNTRDF oxv3LM7Gct5CpoaN+jrNw9jRq5MLBy+DTlF3gA3Ia+NRsHmDS4FfffXXCp+snSc3HJzU DfmH7MQ44V49u1Q9Ow6RgfB+sMVLReb/BEXHz8E5alcgdIOrzX7q3ZS3FM5YQo8ZZInw Zi8hmLiH8uFypFogPuPz6TLZPHJ02UnLT1xcHcmLwwF57HbpOQLRUztpr4agPnXj8O9q d6Jw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5337nSkydkY8J7ogZ4VgrMbKt/GABQxaMVyBFVQUcXJq488dVTgg IyWnjzX979lthxV0Q5PeGGVWDJHM7DZ3eWux X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy2FRriaDmhkSCtyuCRNCn4uqXFDtMkkh/OgUCtRFqf8OV69u07p7qPGY/oijOQPAbmmCrdAQ== X-Received: by 2002:a63:2ad6:0:b0:3f9:d9fa:2713 with SMTP id q205-20020a632ad6000000b003f9d9fa2713mr7517965pgq.512.1654238634620; Thu, 02 Jun 2022 23:43:54 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from Taix ([240b:253:ec40:2400:b7d1:436e:2d61:e925]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q2-20020a170903204200b00161ac982b9esm4515978pla.185.2022.06.02.23.43.52 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 02 Jun 2022 23:43:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <8335gme0ml.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 03 Jun 2022 09:12:34 +0300") Received-SPF: none client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::42e; envelope-from=higashi@taiju.info; helo=mail-pf1-x42e.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:290599 Archived-At: Hi Eli, Thank you for reviewing! > Meanwhile, would you like to start the legal paperwork of assigning to > the FSF the copyright for your changes? Your changes are small, but > they are still borderline larger than we can accept without the > copyright assignment. If you agree, I will send you the form to fill > and instructions to go with the form. With pleasure, of course! This is the happiest moment since I became a supporting member of FSF. > In addition to a configure-time option, I think it would be a good > idea to have a special Makefile rule to regenerate the Japanese > dictionary while skipping or not skipping the vocabulary reduction. > Is such an option available with your changes? I think it is, but I'm > not certain. So if needed, could you please add such an option to > leim/Makefile.in? There were no options in the original code. As you suggested, I will add a new target. >> + Does Emacs reduce the Japanese dictionary? ${with_ja_dic_reduction} > > I guess this wording is better: > > Should Emacs reduce Japanese dictionary vocabulary? Thank you, I'll fix it and there is a wrong commit comment (s/with-ja-dic-reduction/without-ja-dic-reduction/), so I'll fix too. >> By the way, if I may be honest, I would like to remove this reduction >> process. >> >> "名古屋" (Nagoya) [0] is the name of one of Japan's major cities and is a >> proper noun. >> >> I don't think most people, myself included, recognize that the word is a >> composite of "名古" and "屋". >> >> I am Japanese, so my sense may be different, but I recognize "New York" >> as one word and "Spider-man" as one word. >> In other words, instead of converting "名古" and "屋" respectively, we >> want to convert "名古屋" as it is. It is stressful to have to separate >> the words I imagine in my head from the words I use in Kanji >> conversion. I would like to reduce that frequency at least a little. >> >> Although the skkdic-reduced-candidates function mechanically eliminates >> words that can be entered by combining them with other words, it does >> not judge the importance of words, so even frequently used words like " >> 名古屋" are eliminated. That is very inconvenient. >> >> My concern is that Emacs' standard Kanji conversion engine will be >> regarded as useless. >> Despite being based on a dictionary with a sufficient vocabulary >> (SKK-JISYO.L), it generates an inconvenient dictionary by the reduction >> process. >> Most of the people who rated Emacs' standard kanji conversion engine as >> useless are probably unaware of this fact. >> I also rated the standard Emacs kanji conversion engine as >> useless. Because I did not know that fact. >> However, when I learned the facts, I realized that this was a >> misunderstanding and that I had disrespectful feelings toward Emacs. >> This is simply a disrepute due to misunderstanding. > > This is something which would need an expert to respond to. I admit > that I don't even understand the issues you are describing, as I don't > read Kanji and don't speak Japanese. I hope Handa-san will comment on > that. > >> The reduction of dictionaries would reduce the file size by less than >> half. While significant, how important is this in today's computing >> environment? > > It isn't too important, IMO. The reduction in Emacs's memory > footprint, if that is significant, is probably more important. Thank you. I believe there is room for discussion about it. -- Taiju