From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tim Cross Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Convert README.org to plain text README while installing package Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2022 17:43:14 +1000 Message-ID: <87a6anzj1w.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87leuca7v7.fsf@disroot.org> <87czfopmsd.fsf@gnu.org> <87h74ztshe.fsf@gmx.de> <871qw31ois.fsf@yahoo.com> <8735gj4ceo.fsf@gnu.org> <87ee038ipt.fsf@gmx.de> <87o7z61v59.fsf@gmail.com> <87ilpbzlq5.fsf@gmail.com> <877d5rty58.fsf@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="14539"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.7.26; emacs 28.1.50 Cc: Jean Louis , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Ihor Radchenko Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Jun 08 09:59:27 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nyqb7-0003TY-H6 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 09:59:25 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:43894 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nyqb5-0005Vl-Vo for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 03:59:24 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:53740) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nyqWi-0004ZI-9I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 03:54:52 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pl1-x633.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::633]:37447) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nyqWe-0007wa-Fn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 03:54:50 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pl1-x633.google.com with SMTP id t2so16963248pld.4 for ; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 00:54:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:date:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version; bh=W+T3w7hCup5ChaDziCdx+82pHnZpIOIji8wk9KjZUI0=; b=W+SJTQ1HhwVu34RoiTvd3Aywg65k3F4K0MjQhT+wZ3Rh/hN2xjMnhMNLc1Tpd0QCRY owdL416l79tqA0YWnJ8VnXuvh74DMPZ1V0uLo2K/8U8pLOMCNBd9ZUcgZwzBhNIosXA9 KKRee3V7MEalVBWhN3TXUVW3bof8yYXMgO5OBvYcE/qcrO4iFyca4C8CH+1OVg05zbsk iesRbQjffGNSIV49bswlM1QUvMKO06tnknbYZ24RSbh/ppOrryoFQN3UpkXe6B3RnEr1 e8EBmlPWfbRYl1wBMiXJbzAuvl+R7J5SogHg5EFYpWQuZNrMtn9g1KGlM9KleGEnCyyR 882w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:date :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version; bh=W+T3w7hCup5ChaDziCdx+82pHnZpIOIji8wk9KjZUI0=; b=P6xBo+/5pcMb6gUwQIPl2v2yEOerHdiB7f0GiPPykKkx7q7qckITyCEnG4ETjNgfWV ad+JV61c1muSE/mkOOCMnlm8uJRLD4gzOlGoP/NCX387PgAkIirnDKHVUA3w8lLZGZyS 4yvLc3A7fkynZ7xOFyt/ID5QYzIfmSbGl2uSUj3uByzMUhi2/Owd9nt7s/ggTht1RPt4 od7Jl7UjoOYq+Ut5DJdNENqIwEjV/PexYoxXf8LraeXKd9KfXJln1/1zBT082Ni268ff VWcXcL9GA7+RgSWFN85Stibc0f6RffGSXLOgrHCLq7jqMZynE2CHKFCPs84Lu4FM0mm+ QBvA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533TQGPoUSXE6xQFTM9Ppwachxv7ppDdj2g8zMHEu+FthU9L7thB uPohReTEgIYDZ7z9Z/wENQ0dSEpd/ow= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyi1p04i+N/b5xYysvGnyKWqZYx+kADyoEJTpaDCUuraS0o261fPqWqpFSV1oaoi3L4hQ5R4g== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:eb85:b0:167:8dcb:2003 with SMTP id q5-20020a170902eb8500b001678dcb2003mr9354806plg.121.1654674886749; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 00:54:46 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from dingbat (2001-44b8-31f2-bb00-cd2b-640d-0e7c-d2cf.static.ipv6.internode.on.net. [2001:44b8:31f2:bb00:cd2b:640d:e7c:d2cf]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b11-20020a17090a6acb00b001d2bff34228sm15951870pjm.9.2022.06.08.00.54.44 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 08 Jun 2022 00:54:46 -0700 (PDT) In-reply-to: <877d5rty58.fsf@localhost> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::633; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-pl1-x633.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:290907 Archived-At: Ihor Radchenko writes: > Tim Cross writes: > >> Jean Louis writes: >> >>> * Tim Cross [2022-06-06 15:57]: >>>> Org files *are* plain text. This is one of (perhaps the biggest) selling >>>> points for org mode. >>> >>> We may call it "plain text" and problem is not that we can open Org >>> files with any editor as plain text, but in formatting. People format >>> Org files in such ways that they are not readable, they may not make >>> spacing where it would be otherwise required, in other words, plain >>> text files do not look nearly as readable as for example RFC text, >>> like this one: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1.txt >> >> Please give me an example of org mode 'not make space where it would be >> otherwise required'. Can you provide a single example of org mode >> syntax which is not readable in any text editor. There are quite a few >> projects on Github/Gitlab which have readme.org files - can you point to >> one which cannot be read with a plain text editor? > > I'd say that Jean made a fair point. > In Org, authors may not care as much about, for example, indentation. > Especially when the org files are written with org-indent-mode turned > on. > > If you look at https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1.txt, the paragraphs a > nicely indented and can be distinguished from the headers. The top-level > headers are numbered and can be easily distinguished from the > lower-level headers. The paragraph text is also filled appropriately, > unlike some Org documents written with truncate-lines set to nil. > > So, without Emacs, Org files (some of them!) may be harder to read > compared to properly formatted ASCII. > > I am not 100% sure if we need to do anything about this observation. > One practical conclusion that can be made is that we might incorporate > filling, numbering, and indentation into ox-org.el. > On one level, fair enough. However, this has nothing to do with org mode in the sense it is not enforced or caused by org mode. My point is that there is nothing in the org mode syntax which makes it impossible to read the contents with any plain text editor. You can also write a poorly formatted ascii file which lacks indentation, spaces etc in any editor. There is nothing in org syntax which forces people to set truncate lines to nil or prevents them from indenting or wrapping or adding underlines or extra spaces around headings or .... If you want to write rfc compliant files with org mode, you can. It isn't the org mode syntax which is the issue. Besides, just because a plain text file doesn't look as nice or isn't a subjectively readable doesn't mean it isn't a plain text file anymore.