From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Stability of core packages (was: Not easy at all to upgrade :core packages like Eglot) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2023 14:13:40 +0200 Message-ID: <87a5z3izst.fsf@web.de> References: <87a5zj2vfo.fsf@gmail.com> <83fs934pjf.fsf@gnu.org> <87wn2fk47y.fsf@posteo.net> <83sfd2g2ek.fsf@gnu.org> <875y9yfxrr.fsf@gmail.com> <87y1muefks.fsf@gmail.com> <834jpifizy.fsf@gnu.org> <83y1mue1qi.fsf@gnu.org> <83sfd2e01f.fsf@gnu.org> <1a5e5837-513b-84d8-3260-cdbf42b71267@gutov.dev> <83sfcz9rf2.fsf@gnu.org> <09a49ab9-ac72-36a9-3e68-9c633710eba7@gutov.dev> <83r0sh8i1q.fsf@gnu.org> <35638c9d-e13f-fad8-5f95-ea03d65d4aa2@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="20350"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.10.0; emacs 29.0.60 Cc: Jim Porter , Eli Zaretskii , Dmitry Gutov , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Apr 19 18:49:12 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1ppAzX-00058J-Om for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 19 Apr 2023 18:49:11 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ppAyh-0007xw-6Q; Wed, 19 Apr 2023 12:48:19 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ppAyf-0007xh-RE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 19 Apr 2023 12:48:18 -0400 Original-Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.14]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ppAyd-0001jQ-2G; Wed, 19 Apr 2023 12:48:17 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1681922886; i=arne_bab@web.de; bh=s3C55aaW/jNlcVLQxZYfz1O1E+UfroBw7v4AUC2VSyw=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:References:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-reply-to; b=mPeLap8tfPcpE/lKomByvqtURBPjrP1/raCoFecxRCBBwprvcFjdivgs2J759SZ+j Y/eAC14v2f7eaAEYWT7XWJDOIhbLaQ8/HAHvRMr2NEAJqjz3Tz442P0pYYLZLz96VP jyHRukEXHqvHf7ZJ5CpJacxmtZcyQoXZ/oK8h9swckcE/Sai8lZ55jSjxM04jXzXef 0Sn/7UZ1hpZyIS9wNnfsi23jvO8Vbx11OAcCyDhnpy60oRrpK/8PfHD7TbUKj50eoo ppaVgfLq8ESDAnZZ/zZD0jZvitq82zKyOstF1IVR6sD2NwenCRzDfFGthgv7fOxwsS oALwx00WTvz7A== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Original-Received: from fluss ([84.165.25.222]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb005 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MTfon-1pk3683xZV-00U252; Wed, 19 Apr 2023 18:48:06 +0200 In-reply-to: X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:ISPra9oIWqHN5kZNFMqyFJ/aPAHRPqkJ9GoQI4jI/mNadP7G3rd NlSyA0/pYlk+bQayqT5ECbEnRWj0MXJr2Fvn6kixKKnsN9JYZeSFpTAKxJiOfiLMsBgvLA/ 6nW+3O0vn9sWb5yPP1qqzKQa0ikU7CLN1vccfP37YOgcuIixvEg0FFbhBrtcplp6AaFgAdT CH2mZPdb9gej0PCkkIzXQ== UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:SGhDPrbsRsc=;S4jeX+3tFCKTEsISZBY5nlTd2qp wljHwT7C83PXn8DoUFm7ELpH3xS+A2ebNNPYgWTJV9VabviPK7iGyTS8q/9tVgboKjqobqHOf yBVSlnNlgmKP/Sa3mRHtgqHf4+EE148dg9uHzDXQRLrZ1J1qf4gxWdYFGgGO8gpOLgr7YCv3y MllPGOGH0isBRT5ojqKxOZ6CZufLqYZ8mgSCsoVNo3Gz2J3RdsXp1CPwTAxJtDdk1dDqGBtYm bPSpAgXN6S2lWfgcO20y5kY9ZZ+xfa5R8n4e2S8jlnwpr1hR4Cjw2pFvNtgrRTHjYH4YHDx9x J1p5R6elnqCBDqpDAxK8ZWt+ZI3pk6LSaxyOie9OzDLpj5u/4Z3DQ+XQEzN3ce7XfotSJ16eb LDzbPSAmTkW8MoH7Z4A6s1IoeHT+pcQpZ6PUH9Os66O+AWPyTMw2qOkNj1GJJ0Okcq69qXf9b UiyGhHr5F+gUguOJTcRaMAgVY00KWI+pOdDbyNavuYyOlfnWe6Lyud8nZV4bGs/4TrdBMeVi0 8NQiRnpg7ueClP//R4W0PDPywAdNMlKC6DLVi+oG93Ev14d6ko3wluiY41Hu+qpV1go7cPxJr m7xzUPxRuNr1H47joZpz22NVnvwrfiz0oAAN8NUT3F/bST3rtqFUbJXjyyhK2LI97v46AC9AW Hz3lXY0OMGfgR3izyh3WC0DVNTFHXZy5dRwxx5F6FLxZRgvK3x3mMz7K1VczGZfSsA+aDp0N9 MDgAfe2DJGM0JGlsu7GUraBAvrebizVyX0QiIaO7wYM1jbshsK2VFy1V/gg/T/wkyVIMdVIg Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.15.14; envelope-from=arne_bab@web.de; helo=mout.web.de X-Spam_score_int: -11 X-Spam_score: -1.2 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.2 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=1.592, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:305443 Archived-At: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora writes: > A. The effects of the form (package-install 'eglot) moving from > Emacs 26,27,28 to Emacs 29 are drastically different. > That's bad stability. > > B. The effects of, say, the form (package-install 'xref) moving > from Emacs 28 to Emacs 29 are the same. That's good stability. > > What I'd like to know if anyone else thinks, like me, that this is > a problem. We can discuss how bad of a problem (I think it's > moderately serious). To me any breakage in behavior when updating to a newer version is serious. I use Emacs for many scenarios, and some of those I only touch twice a year (when I give a lecture and update slides for it), while others I might not use for 3 years until I go back into that old Python package. Usually when I get in there and someting is broken in my Emacs that I didn=E2=80=99t see otherwise, that=E2=80=99s very painful, because I=E2=80= =99m often under time pressure (like =E2=80=9Cthe lecture is tomorrow and I just realized I have = to change these slides, but with the new version I=E2=80=99ve been using for h= alf a year the layout of just exactly these slides is broken and I still have to make dinner for the family and actually get some sleep afterwards!=E2=80= =9D). But there are too many different tasks to actually check them all every time I update. And I usually don=E2=80=99t choose to do an Emacs update, but just update when my distro ships the new version. Emacs has been mostly really good at just working after an update (except for some rare cases where I used a fringe org-feature or where electric indent got enabled in org-mode), and to me it is essential that Emacs with moderate customization (I have around 1900 lines of custom-set-variables =E2=80=94 mostly org-capture-templates, org-latex-clas= ses, and safe-local-variable-values =E2=80=94 and 1000 lines of customization = =E2=80=94 most of those via use-package) stays stable and does not become volatile. To some argumentation why that=E2=80=99s not just my preference but essenti= al: https://stevelosh.com/blog/2012/04/volatile-software/ Best wishes, Arne =2D-=20 Unpolitisch sein hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein, ohne es zu merken. draketo.de --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQJEBAEBCAAuFiEE801qEjXQSQPNItXAE++NRSQDw+sFAmRAG0IQHGFybmVfYmFi QHdlYi5kZQAKCRAT741FJAPD63cZEACLZH6nOOZDBlj2kNBNdLTGXvLIEWG1FJvi 1bLXaae3uZHMsPln8qcBvRvAcQtTKDyS24aXxATHOytlhwzR+qWYorA/liHurP4B MugSgosI5Io8F8ZH7KXiYdonU809EZPmKR5X/TIkHo+R1lw/vbB4fNTuhtnviSKM +xJXy5H/4jATVmAr+/Phv0ycTas5HvoZ5d9FxSHdQnJfWWB636jhniSM7RciFPS2 viJuWk/dQqDI6DzD7A7Niop1FWav42vgOYEPQndYstLjEdENqLWLFJQUHSSVZ/EI UK3Ohe2AkO2YtAoDNjI6x/N/k8u2Bue8SmhtlG/ICE+NEPUW4Hn0NdCgGwIkD+B2 MJauKc4WjNdwesFxeCmCdzhtBuPnZGdH9u+oj2Qq4o226Pkm6+oTejNBfgW37DcQ GKclVpdfczqJUyBK9MCLbzohKzkpZXPox25+TXdUV7RYbI9ce3miHEIsb15b2WZQ bS7C88CnRe47xHoU8xLxipUzoBQVWjZyRD8q8NllLe8FpzfokIG5YrVvPV+4xHbv ePjU1yRaYhGYl9bw1wgwOmrWbgnwX247VLkUQIHAsteiGPVdnPhEntnqcqWYRz8K 5TyzPQEnHJUAcApcI05eGwmubzdMsJnrLB5OkRhirRC5r34EgKVZClmscuvFSOlu GhbBT4OoWYjEBAEBCAAuFiEE3Si95tmHXKvOSosd3M8NswvBBUgFAmRAG0UQHGFy bmVfYmFiQHdlYi5kZQAKCRDczw2zC8EFSFhLA/9PXG9r2qTIkG7wAioYEVscEll9 iR+LxQZFQt3+o2sxp7JNKnKnFtWDTWe+40Ad9Ebz8H5bRE1ghmoow+ADyWN8gJt/ l9uCT56TnTxKAVtu5ThRWJT5wLglcWb7shFvH+xTSu+TBdIjatraEhVqd/AgMKmz Fv8SSndhaASVlGDYGg== =eX9n -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--