minor suggestions for splash screen

minor suggestions for splash screen

[Drew Adams]

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FWIW, here are some minor suggestions for the splash screen. See attached
screen shot for reference.  If you disagree, fine: I won't defend the
suggestions.

. Put the Copyright at the very bottom.

. Move "This is GNU Emacs..." to just after (or just before)
  "GNU Emacs is one component of the GNU operating system.
  Identify it and say what it belongs to at the same place.

. Or else put "This is GNU Emacs 22..." at the bottom
  (followed by the Copyright).

. Put the "If an Emacs session crashed..." just below
  "Recover Crashed Session".  Better: just drop "If an
  Emacs...".  It's not needed if "Recover..." is there.

. Align all of the descriptions of the menu items.
  If they all need to move to the right a bit, that's OK.
  Aligning them makes them more readable.

. Drop "using Info".  Don't mention "Info" unless you
  explain what you mean.

. Drop "You can do basic editing with the menu bar and
  scroll bar using the mouse".  Useless.

. Change "Important" to "Useful".


[-- Attachment #2: emacs-22-splash-screen.PNG --]
[-- Type: image/png, Size: 31701 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 142 bytes --]

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evangelizing Emacs with a graphical tutorial (was: minor sugg...splash screen)

[Jason Spiro]

"Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com> wrote:
> FWIW, here are some minor suggestions for the splash screen.
[snip]

I agree wholeheartedly with your suggestions.  I have one more: We
should provide a clickable link to a graphical tutorial on the Emacs
splash screen.

http://stuff.mit.edu/iap/emacs/emacs-slides-1.pdf seems to be a good
one.  It quickly covers the basics such as how to move the cursor.
Then it gets to the useful stuff, such as the kill ring, isearch, etc.

I took a show of hands at my school's LUG meeting today, and only 10%
of the students used Emacs.  Nowadays, too many people use non-Free
IDEs.  Is there any better way to show people the power of Emacs than
a graphical tutorial?

If I submit a patch to implement this link, will it be accepted?

Re: evangelizing Emacs with a graphical tutorial

[David Kastrup]

Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4+news@gmail.com> writes:

> "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com> wrote:
>> FWIW, here are some minor suggestions for the splash screen.
> [snip]
>
> I agree wholeheartedly with your suggestions.  I have one more: We
> should provide a clickable link to a graphical tutorial on the Emacs
> splash screen.
>
> http://stuff.mit.edu/iap/emacs/emacs-slides-1.pdf seems to be a good
> one.  It quickly covers the basics such as how to move the cursor.
> Then it gets to the useful stuff, such as the kill ring, isearch, etc.
>
> I took a show of hands at my school's LUG meeting today, and only 10%
> of the students used Emacs.  Nowadays, too many people use non-Free
> IDEs.  Is there any better way to show people the power of Emacs than
> a graphical tutorial?

Is that a trick question?  How about an interactive hands-on tutorial
running in Emacs itself?  Seems more useful for me, and we have that
already.  And it is not in a propretary format, and it does not
require a different program for display.

And for non-interactive use, it would appear that the Emacs reference
card covers a _lot_ more.  Maybe we should link to that in some
manner, like offering to call
(shell-command
  (format (mailcap-mime-info "application/postscript")
     (expand-file-name "refcard.ps" data-directory)))

> If I submit a patch to implement this link, will it be accepted?

Apart from the points above: what guarantee would we have that the
link does not go away in the next 5 years?

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: evangelizing Emacs with a graphical tutorial

[Nic James Ferrier]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

> Apart from the points above: what guarantee would we have that the
> link does not go away in the next 5 years?

I agree with you broadly.

But it IS a good tutorial. Perhaps it should be cached and prominently
linked to on the emacs homepage?

-- 
Nic Ferrier
http://www.tapsellferrier.co.uk   for all your tapsell ferrier needs

Re: evangelizing Emacs with a graphical tutorial

[Jason Spiro]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:
> Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4+news@gmail.com> writes:
>> "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com> wrote:
...
>> http://stuff.mit.edu/iap/emacs/emacs-slides-1.pdf seems to be a good
>> one.  It quickly covers the basics such as how to move the cursor.
>> Then it gets to the useful stuff, such as the kill ring, isearch, etc.
...
> Is that a trick question?  How about an interactive hands-on tutorial
> running in Emacs itself?  Seems more useful for me, and we have that
> already. And it is not in a propretary format, and it does not
> require a different program for display.

The tutorial I mention covers far more than the built-in tutorial,
including major modes, regexp replace, and more.  It is attractively
presented in concise point form with useful diagrams.  Having seen it,
what do you think of it?

> And for non-interactive use, it would appear that the Emacs reference
> card covers a _lot_ more.  Maybe we should link to that in some
> manner, like offering to call
> (shell-command
>   (format (mailcap-mime-info "application/postscript")
>      (expand-file-name "refcard.ps" data-directory)))

I agree that would also be useful to link to.  However, it is not a
wide-ranging tutorial; it is a reference, useful mainly for
experienced Emacs users.  IMO, Emacs needs to ship with more graphical
and tutorial-style material.

>> If I submit a patch to implement this link, will it be accepted?
>
> Apart from the points above: what guarantee would we have that the
> link does not go away in the next 5 years?

None.  Perhaps we can get the tutorial released into the public domain
so we can ship it with Emacs?  Also, is there a way it can be
converted for viewing inside Emacs (perhaps in w3m-el if installed, or
in Emacs itself otherwise?)

Re: evangelizing Emacs with a graphical tutorial (was: minor sugg...splash screen)

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4+news@gmail.com>
> Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 05:38:08 -0500
> 
> "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com> wrote:
> > FWIW, here are some minor suggestions for the splash screen.
> [snip]
> 
> I agree wholeheartedly with your suggestions.  I have one more: We
> should provide a clickable link to a graphical tutorial on the Emacs
> splash screen.
> 
> http://stuff.mit.edu/iap/emacs/emacs-slides-1.pdf seems to be a good
> one.  It quickly covers the basics such as how to move the cursor.
> Then it gets to the useful stuff, such as the kill ring, isearch, etc.
> 
> I took a show of hands at my school's LUG meeting today, and only 10%
> of the students used Emacs.  Nowadays, too many people use non-Free
> IDEs.  Is there any better way to show people the power of Emacs than
> a graphical tutorial?
> 
> If I submit a patch to implement this link, will it be accepted?

Thanks, but please don't, not now: we are in the middle of a pretest,
striving to put out Emacs 22.1 ASAP.  Any changes that are not
bugfixes distract us from the pretest and run the risk of adding new
bugs, thus delaying the release.

Please come back and revisit this issue after Emacs 22.1 is released.

Re: evangelizing Emacs with a graphical tutorial (was: minor sugg...splash screen)

[Jason Spiro]

2007/1/30, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>:
> > From: Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4+news@gmail.com>
> > Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 05:38:08 -0500
> >
> > "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com> wrote:
> > > FWIW, here are some minor suggestions for the splash screen.
> > [snip]
> >
> > I agree wholeheartedly with your suggestions.  I have one more: We
> > should provide a clickable link to a graphical tutorial on the Emacs
> > splash screen.
> >
> > http://stuff.mit.edu/iap/emacs/emacs-slides-1.pdf seems to be a good
> > one.  It quickly covers the basics such as how to move the cursor.
> > Then it gets to the useful stuff, such as the kill ring, isearch, etc.
> >
> > I took a show of hands at my school's LUG meeting today, and only 10%
> > of the students used Emacs.  Nowadays, too many people use non-Free
> > IDEs.  Is there any better way to show people the power of Emacs than
> > a graphical tutorial?
> >
> > If I submit a patch to implement this link, will it be accepted?
>
> Thanks, but please don't, not now: we are in the middle of a pretest,
> striving to put out Emacs 22.1 ASAP.  Any changes that are not
> bugfixes distract us from the pretest and run the risk of adding new
> bugs, thus delaying the release.
>
> Please come back and revisit this issue after Emacs 22.1 is released.

Could this, too, be added to the TODO file? :-)

-- 
Jason Spiro: computer consulting with a smile.
I also provide web and software development services for businesses worldwide.
Call or email for a FREE 5-minute consultation. Satisfaction guaranteed.
+1 (416) 781-5938 / Email: info@jspiro.com / MSN: jasonspiro@hotmail.com

Re: evangelizing Emacs with a graphical tutorial

[Richard Stallman]

    None.  Perhaps we can get the tutorial released into the public domain
    so we can ship it with Emacs?

If you tell me the name and email address of its author, I will ask him
to make it free.  (It is not necessary that it be in the public domain.)

Re: evangelizing Emacs with a graphical tutorial

[Chris Moore]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> If you tell me the name and email address of its author, I will ask
> him to make it free.  (It is not necessary that it be in the public
> domain.)

Here are the details:

     PDF: http://stuff.mit.edu/iap/emacs/emacs-slides-1.pdf
  author: Phil Sung
   email: sipb­iap­emacs@mit.edu
     web: http://stuff.mit.edu/iap/emacs

Re: evangelizing Emacs with a graphical tutorial

[Mathias Dahl]

> But it IS a good tutorial. Perhaps it should be cached and prominently
> linked to on the emacs homepage?

I agree, I think it was nice and easy to read. Each slide had enough
information without overwhelming you.

Please add a "Guided Tour" menu command (was: Re: evangelizing Emacs with a graphical tutorial)

[Jason Spiro]

Over a year ago (2007-01-30) Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> wrote:
...
> Please come back and revisit this issue after Emacs 22.1 is released.

OK.  I have waited, and now I'm back.  :)

( The rest of this message is forwarded from 
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/emacs22/+bug/244276 )

Please add a command to the Help menu to show the user the Emacs guided tour.  
I see two options for how it could work:

1.  You could make the command launch the system default web browser and point 
it to http://www.gnu.org/s/emacs/tour/

2.  Or you could ship the tour .odp and .pdf files with Emacs like XEmacs does
[1], then ask the OS to launch them in whatever it thinks is the appropriate 
viewer.

^ [1]. http://ftp.xemacs.org/pub/xemacs/beta/experimental/packages/guided-tour-
0.52-pkg.tar.gz

Re: Please add a "Guided Tour" menu command (was: Re: evangelizing Emacs with a graphical tutorial)

[Juri Linkov]

> Over a year ago (2007-01-30) Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> wrote:
> ...
>> Please come back and revisit this issue after Emacs 22.1 is released.
>
> OK.  I have waited, and now I'm back.  :)
>
> ( The rest of this message is forwarded from
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/emacs22/+bug/244276 )
>
> Please add a command to the Help menu to show the user the Emacs guided tour.
> I see two options for how it could work:
>
> 1.  You could make the command launch the system default web browser and point
> it to http://www.gnu.org/s/emacs/tour/

Thanks.  This link is already added to the startup screen,
so there is no more need to put it on the Help menu.

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

Re: evangelizing Emacs with a graphical tutorial

[Juri Linkov]

BTW, while looking now at the startup screen with a new nice image,
I have a feeling that it is a bit unfriendly to put the word "to quit"
just below the word "Welcome".

I propose to move this line a few lines below to be after the line
"To start".  This would be more logical place and more friendly.

Everyone will still see it on the startup screen.  Anyway, this line
is less noticeable than the line "Emacs Tutorial Learn basic keystroke
commands", so when the user visits the Tutorial without reading
anything else on the startup screen, then the user misses this important
information on the beginning of the Tutorial.  So I also propose to add
this line to the Tutorial as well.  The following path does this:

Index: etc/tutorials/TUTORIAL
===================================================================
RCS file: /sources/emacs/emacs/etc/tutorials/TUTORIAL,v
retrieving revision 1.4
diff -c -r1.4 TUTORIAL
*** etc/tutorials/TUTORIAL	15 May 2008 07:32:14 -0000	1.4
--- etc/tutorials/TUTORIAL	12 Jul 2008 22:21:29 -0000
***************
*** 11,16 ****
--- 11,17 ----
  	  ESC key and then type <chr>.  We write <ESC> for the ESC key.
  
  Important note: to end the Emacs session, type C-x C-c.  (Two characters.)
+ To quit a partially entered command, type C-g.
  The characters ">>" at the left margin indicate directions for you to
  try using a command.  For instance:
  <<Blank lines inserted around following line by help-with-tutorial>>

Index: lisp/startup.el
===================================================================
RCS file: /sources/emacs/emacs/lisp/startup.el,v
retrieving revision 1.494
diff -c -r1.494 startup.el
*** lisp/startup.el	2 Jul 2008 01:49:01 -0000	1.494
--- lisp/startup.el	12 Jul 2008 22:21:34 -0000
***************
*** 1183,1192 ****
  	     "Browse http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html")
  	 '("GNU" (lambda (button) (describe-gnu-project))
  	   "Display info on the GNU project")))
!      " operating system.\n"
!      :face variable-pitch "To quit a partially entered command, type "
!      :face default "Control-g"
!      :face variable-pitch ".\n\n"
       :link ("Emacs Tutorial" (lambda (button) (help-with-tutorial)))
       "\tLearn basic keystroke commands"
       (lambda ()
--- 1183,1189 ----
  	     "Browse http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html")
  	 '("GNU" (lambda (button) (describe-gnu-project))
  	   "Display info on the GNU project")))
!      " operating system.\n\n"
       :link ("Emacs Tutorial" (lambda (button) (help-with-tutorial)))
       "\tLearn basic keystroke commands"
       (lambda ()
***************
*** 1429,1434 ****
--- 1426,1435 ----
  	       (lambda (button) (customize-group 'initialization))
  	       "Change initialization settings including this screen")
         "\n"))
+     (fancy-splash-insert
+      :face 'variable-pitch "To quit a partially entered command, type "
+      :face 'default "Control-g"
+      :face 'variable-pitch ".\n")
      (fancy-splash-insert :face `(variable-pitch (:foreground ,fg))
  			 "\nThis is "
  			 (emacs-version)

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

Re: evangelizing Emacs with a graphical tutorial

[Chong Yidong]

Juri Linkov <juri@jurta.org> writes:

> BTW, while looking now at the startup screen with a new nice image,
> I have a feeling that it is a bit unfriendly to put the word "to quit"
> just below the word "Welcome".
>
> I propose to move this line a few lines below to be after the line
> "To start".  This would be more logical place and more friendly.
>
> Everyone will still see it on the startup screen.  Anyway, this line
> is less noticeable than the line "Emacs Tutorial Learn basic keystroke
> commands", so when the user visits the Tutorial without reading
> anything else on the startup screen, then the user misses this important
> information on the beginning of the Tutorial.  So I also propose to add
> this line to the Tutorial as well.  The following path does this:

Sounds good.

Re: evangelizing Emacs with a graphical tutorial

[David Kastrup]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 702 bytes --]

Juri Linkov <juri@jurta.org> writes:

> BTW, while looking now at the startup screen with a new nice image,
> I have a feeling that it is a bit unfriendly to put the word "to quit"
> just below the word "Welcome".
>
> I propose to move this line a few lines below to be after the line
> "To start".  This would be more logical place and more friendly.

I am not sure about that: the most unfriendly thing an editor can do to
a beginner is not allowing him to quit.  Now that's probably not an
issue for the GUI startup screen since we have File/Exit Emacs on the
menu.

Actually, the next unfriendly thing is not allowing a user _not_ to
quit.  I just tried

C-h k M-F4

and got the following result:


[-- Attachment #2: Screenshot.png --]
[-- Type: image/png, Size: 13885 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 245 bytes --]


Conspicuously absent in this plethora of answers is an option _not_ to
quit (presumably "Cancel").  Closing the dialog window happens to
achieve that, apparently, but it is not really obvious.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: evangelizing Emacs with a graphical tutorial

[Juri Linkov]

> I am not sure about that: the most unfriendly thing an editor can do to
> a beginner is not allowing him to quit.  Now that's probably not an
> issue for the GUI startup screen since we have File/Exit Emacs on the
> menu.
>
> Actually, the next unfriendly thing is not allowing a user _not_ to
> quit.  I just tried
>
> C-h k M-F4
>
> and got the following result:
>
> Conspicuously absent in this plethora of answers is an option _not_ to
> quit (presumably "Cancel").  Closing the dialog window happens to
> achieve that, apparently, but it is not really obvious.

It seems C-g is supposed to be used to close the dialog window,
but this is not obvious either.

And the "Yes/No" answer is not a friendly thing too.  I once lost
changes in an unsaved file a long ago (not in Emacs) because after
closing the program to the question "Save file?" in a hurry I answered
"No" intending the meaning "No, I will save it later" :-)  I guess this
is the reason why instead of "Yes" and "No" many contemporary programs
display explicit unambiguous answers like "Save" and "Don't save".

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

Re: evangelizing Emacs with a graphical tutorial

[Juri Linkov]

>> Everyone will still see it on the startup screen.  Anyway, this line
>> is less noticeable than the line "Emacs Tutorial Learn basic keystroke
>> commands", so when the user visits the Tutorial without reading
>> anything else on the startup screen, then the user misses this important
>> information on the beginning of the Tutorial.  So I also propose to add
>> this line to the Tutorial as well.  The following path does this:
>
> Sounds good.

Another unfriendly thing on the Startup screen is the item:

  Emacs Guided Tour	Overview of Emacs features

It has no obvious indication that it links to the external URL and that
after clicking will start a WWW browser.  It has the description on the
tooltip but this is not visible when the mouse is not over it.  I propose
to explicitly say that this link leads to the external URL by changing the
text to:

  Emacs Guided Tour	Overview of Emacs features at gnu.org

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

Re: Please add a

[Jason Spiro]

Months ago, on 2008-Jul-13, Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org> wrote:
> > Over a year ago (2007-01-30) Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> wrote:
[snip]
> > Please add a command to the Help menu to show the user the 
> > Emacs guided tour.
> > I see two options for how it could work:
> >
> > 1.  You could make the command launch the system default web 
> > browser and point
> > it to http://www.gnu.org/s/emacs/tour/
> 
> Thanks.  This link is already added to the startup screen,
> so there is no more need to put it on the Help menu.
> 
Juri, I think it would be better to also have a link on the Help menu.  That's
because I bet some users look only on the Help menu, and not also on the splash
screen, for help.

All: what do you think?

Re: Please add a

[Chong Yidong]

Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4@gmail.com> writes:

> Months ago, on 2008-Jul-13, Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org> wrote:
>> > Over a year ago (2007-01-30) Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> wrote:
> [snip]
>> > Please add a command to the Help menu to show the user the 
>> > Emacs guided tour.
>> > I see two options for how it could work:
>> >
>> > 1.  You could make the command launch the system default web 
>> > browser and point
>> > it to http://www.gnu.org/s/emacs/tour/
>> 
>> Thanks.  This link is already added to the startup screen,
>> so there is no more need to put it on the Help menu.
>> 
> Juri, I think it would be better to also have a link on the Help menu.
> That's because I bet some users look only on the Help menu, and not
> also on the splash screen, for help.
>
> All: what do you think?

It's a little counter-intuitive for menu items to open hyperlinks, at
least in my experience.

RE: Please add a

[Drew Adams]

> Juri, I think it would be better to also have a link on the 
> Help menu.  That's because I bet some users look only on
> the Help menu, and not also on the splash screen, for help.
> 
> All: what do you think?

I agree with Jason.

The Help menu should be a central depot for help.
I see no reason not to include this there.

Besides, I'm not sure how many users, especially new users, will stop at the
startup screen to follow the tour.

RE: Please add a

[Drew Adams]

> > Juri, I think it would be better to also have a link on the 
> > Help menu. That's because I bet some users look only on the
> > Help menu, and not also on the splash screen, for help.
> >
> > All: what do you think?
> 
> It's a little counter-intuitive for menu items to open hyperlinks, at
> least in my experience.

Not in my experience. (s/counter-intuitive/natural)

Nowadays it is not uncommon to have menu items that open Web pages or that
update an application via the Internet. 

Web access is especially common for Help menu items, where the Web page often
provides some more up-to-date help than what is available in the app
distribution. This is very common for publishing doc and help updates.

Having a menu item open a (local or Web) hyperlink is also not very different
from having a menu item `Send Bug Report' that lets you compose and send mail.
At one time, someone might have said that that seemed unnatural for a menu item.

Re: Please add a "Guided Tour" menu command (was: Re: evangelizing Emacs with a graphical tutorial)

[Jason Spiro]

Chong Yidong <cyd <at> stupidchicken.com> wrote:
> It's a little counter-intuitive for menu items to open hyperlinks, at
> least in my experience.

So name the menu item this: "Emacs Guided Tour (web page)".

Or, as I mentioned months ago[1], you could ship the tour .odp and .pdf files
with Emacs like XEmacs does[2], then ask the OS to launch them in whatever it
thinks is the appropriate viewer.  I like that idea better, since I like the
slideshow version of the tour[3] much more than the webpage version.  (Though
maybe I only like it more because I am already a non-newbie Emacs user.  Do you
agree that that's probably why I like it more?)

^  [1].  http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/65537/focus=100397

^  [2].  http://ftp.xemacs.org/pub/xemacs/beta/experimental/packages/guided-tour-
0.52-pkg.tar.gz

^  [3].  http://web.psung.name/emacs/

Re: Please add a "Guided Tour" menu command

[Juri Linkov]

> So name the menu item this: "Emacs Guided Tour (web page)".

Yes, it is important to add such a notice, otherwise running a browser
would a bad surprise for users.

Another question is where to put such a menu item.  Help menus are
already overcrowded.  So maybe to add it to some Help submenu.

> Or, as I mentioned months ago[1], you could ship the tour .odp and .pdf files
> with Emacs like XEmacs does[2], then ask the OS to launch them in whatever it
> thinks is the appropriate viewer.  I like that idea better, since I like the
> slideshow version of the tour[3] much more than the webpage version.  (Though
> maybe I only like it more because I am already a non-newbie Emacs user.  Do
> you agree that that's probably why I like it more?)

Good idea.  We now have a new nice Doc-View mode that can display
PDF files.

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

Re: Please add a "Guided Tour" menu command

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 22:09:19 +0200 (EET)
> From: "Juri Linkov" <juri@jurta.org>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> We now have a new nice Doc-View mode that can display PDF files.

Only if you have a good portion of TeX Live installed.  (I do have it,
btw, even on Windows, but I doubt many non-Unix users will.)

Re: Please add a "Guided Tour" menu command

[Jason Spiro]

Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org> wrote:
> 
> > So name the menu item this: "Emacs Guided Tour (web page)".
> 
> Yes, it is important to add such a notice, otherwise running a browser
> would a bad surprise for users.
> 
> Another question is where to put such a menu item.  Help menus are
> already overcrowded.  So maybe to add it to some Help submenu.

No.  I think the tour is much more important than the tutorial.  (The tutorial
is mostly for people who want to learn to use Emacs without a mouse.  The tour
is for people who want to learn to use Emacs's useful features, like Font Lock
mode and M-x compile.)  So you should rather remove the tutorial to some
submenu.  Or you should remove items from the menu, maybe "Psychotherapist" or
"Getting New Versions".

> Good idea.  We now have a new nice Doc-View mode that can display
> PDF files.

I have never tried Doc-View mode.  Is it as good as most other PDF viewers?

Re: Please add a "Guided Tour" menu command

[Juri Linkov]

>> > So name the menu item this: "Emacs Guided Tour (web page)".
>>
>> Yes, it is important to add such a notice, otherwise running a browser
>> would a bad surprise for users.
>>
>> Another question is where to put such a menu item.  Help menus are
>> already overcrowded.  So maybe to add it to some Help submenu.
>
> No.  I think the tour is much more important than the tutorial.  (The
> tutorial is mostly for people who want to learn to use Emacs without
> a mouse.  The tour is for people who want to learn to use Emacs's
> useful features, like Font Lock mode and M-x compile.)
> So you should rather remove the tutorial to some submenu.

I disagree.  The tour is an advertisement of Emacs features, so it is
most suitable for references on Web pages, blogs, etc. to inform people
about Emacs features.  OTOH, the tutorial is crucial for the beginner
to start using Emacs.

>> Good idea.  We now have a new nice Doc-View mode that can display
>> PDF files.
>
> I have never tried Doc-View mode.  Is it as good as most other PDF viewers?

It is almost as good as other PDF/PS viewers.

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

RE: Please add a "Guided Tour" menu command

[Drew Adams]

> > So name the menu item this: "Emacs Guided Tour (web page)".
> 
> Yes, it is important to add such a notice, otherwise running a browser
> would a bad surprise for users.

Yes. Typical such items are `Help Online', `Help on the Web', and `Web Tour'.

> Another question is where to put such a menu item.  Help menus are
> already overcrowded.  So maybe to add it to some Help submenu.

It's about the same level as these - perhaps they could be grouped in a submenu,
say `Overview':

Overview
 Emacs Tutorial
 Emacs Tutorial (choose language)
 Emacs FAQ
 Emacs News
 Emacs Known Problems

BTW, `Emacs' is not needed in any of those, and `What's New' would be better
than `News', which could be confused with Usenet. 

Also, why have both `Tutorial' and `Tutorial (choose language)'? Just `Tutorial'
is enough, but it should ask for the language (and optionally save that choice,
just as it saves the tutorial position). IOW:

Overview
 Web Tour
 Tutorial
 FAQ
 What's New
 Known Problems

Re: Please add a "Guided Tour" menu command

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4@gmail.com>
> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 20:46:24 +0000 (UTC)
> 
> I think the tour is much more important than the tutorial.  (The tutorial
> is mostly for people who want to learn to use Emacs without a mouse.  The tour
> is for people who want to learn to use Emacs's useful features, like Font Lock
> mode and M-x compile.)

Then perhaps we should have a second tutorial, which describes what
the tour does.

Re: Please add a "Guided Tour" menu command

[Juri Linkov]

>> We now have a new nice Doc-View mode that can display PDF files.
>
> Only if you have a good portion of TeX Live installed.  (I do have it,
> btw, even on Windows, but I doubt many non-Unix users will.)

Then we could generate a set of PNG files from the PDF tour file and
ship them with Emacs to display with the help of doc-view mode
(with possible changes to doc-view to take prepared PNG files
from the predefined directory like etc/tour/images).

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

Re: Please add a "Guided Tour" menu command

[Jason Spiro]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> wrote:
> 
> Then perhaps we should have a second tutorial, which describes what
> the tour does.

If you mean we should have a second version of the tour without images, then I
respectfully disagree.  The tour is good as-is.  It would be much worse without
the screenshots that are in it.

Also, if you mean we should make a second document called a "tutorial" with the
same content of the tour, then I also disagree.  The reason the tour is called a
"tour" is because it is more of a whirlwind tour of Emacs' modes than a tutorial
on how to use each mode.  It would be confusing to have two tutorials.

I am not 100% sure but I suspect the tour covers everything the tutorial covers,
plus more.  I think the tutorial should be removed from Emacs, and replaced with
the tour.

Re: Please add a "Guided Tour" menu command

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com>
> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 13:25:17 -0800
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> Also, why have both `Tutorial' and `Tutorial (choose language)'?

Because the former uses the locale's native language automagically.

> Just `Tutorial' is enough, but it should ask for the language

That'd be annoying if all I want is to read the tutorial in a language
I understand best.

Re: Please add a "Guided Tour" menu command

[Jason Spiro]

Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org> wrote:

> [...] the tutorial is crucial for the beginner
> to start using Emacs.

Why is it crucial?  Are you talking about mouseless beginners?  I think
beginners with mice can learn everything they need from the tour.  And I even
think beginners without mice can too.

Re: Please add a "Guided Tour" menu command

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 23:27:52 +0200 (EET)
> From: "Juri Linkov" <juri@jurta.org>
> Cc: jasonspiro4@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> Then we could generate a set of PNG files from the PDF tour file and
> ship them with Emacs to display with the help of doc-view mode
> (with possible changes to doc-view to take prepared PNG files
> from the predefined directory like etc/tour/images).

That sounds like a lot of trouble.  Why is this so much better than
having a text document?

Re: Please add a "Guided Tour" menu command

[Jason Spiro]

Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org> wrote:
> 
> Then we could generate a set of PNG files from the PDF tour file and
> ship them with Emacs to display with the help of doc-view mode
> (with possible changes to doc-view to take prepared PNG files
> from the predefined directory like etc/tour/images).

Why not use Info mode, and customize Info mode so that it can display images? 
Or why not use the w3 or emacs-w3m web browser, if they are installed?  IIRC
they can display images.

RE: Please add a "Guided Tour" menu command

[Drew Adams]

> > Also, why have both `Tutorial' and `Tutorial (choose language)'?
> 
> Because the former uses the locale's native language automagically.

Then that should suffice. If it doesn't, then the other should suffice. I see no
reason for two menu items. I can see that we might want two different commands
(maybe), but not two menu items.

> > Just `Tutorial' is enough, but it should ask for the language
> 
> That'd be annoying if all I want is to read the tutorial in a language
> I understand best.

Why? You need answer the language question only once (if it saves the language,
as I suggested).

RE: Please add a "Guided Tour" menu command

[Drew Adams]

> The reason the tour is called a "tour" is because it is
> more of a whirlwind tour of Emacs' modes than a tutorial
> on how to use each mode.

Yes, they have different purposes:

1. Tour: giving you an idea of what you can do with Emacs.

2. Tutorial: helping you get started learning how to use Emacs.

#1 is about learning what; #2 is about learning how.

> I am not 100% sure but I suspect the tour covers everything 
> the tutorial covers, plus more.

The tutorial is not meant for "coverage". It's meant to lead you by the hand, to
get you started: learning some basics by doing them.

> I think the tutorial should be removed from 
> Emacs, and replaced with the tour.

This flies in the face of your first statement that they have different
purposes. One cannot replace the other without changing the aim.

The tutorial should not be replaced by the tour. But it should be improved. That
can of worms was explored before, so we can leave it closed for now.

Re: Please add a "Guided Tour" menu command

[Jason Spiro]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> wrote:
> That sounds like a lot of trouble.  Why is this so much better than
> having a text document?

I think it was already explained why the tour is better than the tutorial.

The advantages of the screenshots is that a screenshot is worth a thousand
words.  It shows an Emacs mode in action.

Re: Please add a "Guided Tour" menu command

[Lennart Borgman]

On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 10:25 PM, Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> wrote:

> Overview
>  Web Tour
>  Tutorial
>  FAQ
>  What's New
>  Known Problems

Looks good to me.

Re: Please add a "Guided Tour" menu command

[Lennart Borgman]

On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 11:03 PM, Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4@gmail.com> wrote:
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> wrote:
>> That sounds like a lot of trouble.  Why is this so much better than
>> having a text document?
>
> I think it was already explained why the tour is better than the tutorial.

Isn't it quite hard to compare two things with different purposes
(like Drew explained) in the dimension of "better"?

> The advantages of the screenshots is that a screenshot is worth a thousand
> words.  It shows an Emacs mode in action.

And it is in colors ;-)

Screenshots are very good to get a quick overview so they fit very
nicely in the tour.

Re: Please add a "Guided Tour" menu command

[Lennart Borgman]

On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 10:38 PM, Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4@gmail.com> wrote:
> Why not use Info mode, and customize Info mode so that it can display images?

Might be a good idea but there might be compatibility issues with
external info readers.

> Or why not use the w3 or emacs-w3m web browser, if they are installed?  IIRC
> they can display images.

That would be a disaster. Better use the standard web browser for the platform.

Re: Please add a "Guided Tour" menu command

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4@gmail.com>
> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 21:34:11 +0000 (UTC)
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> wrote:
> > 
> > Then perhaps we should have a second tutorial, which describes what
> > the tour does.
> 
> If you mean we should have a second version of the tour without images, then I
> respectfully disagree.  The tour is good as-is.  It would be much worse without
> the screenshots that are in it.

Emacs supports images, so we can have the screenshots as well.  I see
no problem here.

> Also, if you mean we should make a second document called a "tutorial" with the
> same content of the tour, then I also disagree.  The reason the tour is called a
> "tour" is because it is more of a whirlwind tour of Emacs' modes than a tutorial
> on how to use each mode.  It would be confusing to have two tutorials.

The name is not important, not to me, anyway.  What I meant is that we
could have a "Getting Started" tutorial with the current TUTORIAL's
contents, and then a "Guided Tour" tutorial with the contents of what
we are currently discussing.

> I think the tutorial should be removed from Emacs, and replaced with
> the tour.

That'd be a blow to those who don't read English well, at least.

Re: Please add a "Guided Tour" menu command

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com>
> Cc: <juri@jurta.org>, <jasonspiro4@gmail.com>, <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 13:44:47 -0800
> 
> > > Also, why have both `Tutorial' and `Tutorial (choose language)'?
> > 
> > Because the former uses the locale's native language automagically.
> 
> Then that should suffice.

No, because the locale's native language might in some rare cases be
not what the user wants.

> > > Just `Tutorial' is enough, but it should ask for the language
> > 
> > That'd be annoying if all I want is to read the tutorial in a language
> > I understand best.
> 
> Why? You need answer the language question only once (if it saves the language,
> as I suggested).

Saving it is only useful if I will from now on want that version.  But
that is not guaranteed.

Re: Please add a "Guided Tour" menu command

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4@gmail.com>
> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 22:03:13 +0000 (UTC)
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> wrote:
> > That sounds like a lot of trouble.  Why is this so much better than
> > having a text document?
> 
> I think it was already explained why the tour is better than the tutorial.

We are miscommunicating.  I was talking about the format, not the
contents.

> The advantages of the screenshots is that a screenshot is worth a thousand
> words.  It shows an Emacs mode in action.

Emacs can display images embedded in text, so this is not a problem.

RE: Please add a "Guided Tour" menu command

[Drew Adams]

> > > > Also, why have both `Tutorial' and
> > > > `Tutorial (choose language)'?
> > > 
> > > Because the former uses the locale's native language 
> > > automagically.
> > 
> > Then that should suffice.
> 
> No, because the locale's native language might in some rare cases be
> not what the user wants.

Menu items are not usually chosen with an eye to catering rare cases. I don't
see the need for the Help menu to cover both cases. Just pick one. I'd suggest
the more general one, where you are prompted for the language.

This is about choosing a language for a tutorial, not for casting a PhD thesis
in bronze. Either respect the user's default language setting or ask the user
which language to use. No need to confuse users by presenting both options.

> > > > Just `Tutorial' is enough, but it should ask for the language
> > > 
> > > That'd be annoying if all I want is to read the tutorial 
> > > in a language I understand best.
> > 
> > Why? You need answer the language question only once (if it 
> > saves the language, as I suggested).
> 
> Saving it is only useful if I will from now on want that version.  But
> that is not guaranteed.

It's not about guaranteeing 100% coverage or treating all corner cases. We're
talking about a set of menu items. I think either one of those items is
sufficient. But I won't argue this further.

Re: Please add a "Guided Tour" menu command

[Juri Linkov]

> Why not use Info mode, and customize Info mode so that it can display images?

The Emacs Info reader can display images, but we need teach beginners
to use the Info reader before they can read the tour in Info.

> Or why not use the w3 or emacs-w3m web browser, if they are installed?
> IIRC they can display images.

The function browse-url takes care to run the default browser
that can be w3 as well.

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

Re: Please add a "Guided Tour" menu command

[Stefan Monnier]

>> We now have a new nice Doc-View mode that can display PDF files.
> Only if you have a good portion of TeX Live installed.  (I do have it,
> btw, even on Windows, but I doubt many non-Unix users will.)

AFAIK it only requires ghostscript.  Not that ghostscript is always
installed on Windows systems, but at least it should be more common than
TeX Live.


        Stefan

Re: Please add a "Guided Tour" menu command

[Jason Spiro]

Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 10:25 PM, Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com> wrote:
> 
> > Overview
> >  Web Tour
> >  Tutorial
> >  FAQ
> >  What's New
> >  Known Problems
> 
> Looks good to me.

*  I like the idea of removing the word "Emacs" from the beginning of the five
menu items Drew mentioned.

*  I don't like the idea of moving the tour into a submenu.  It is one of the
most important help items for newbies, perhaps more important than the manual. 
I suspect that putting the tour in a submenu will make less users click on it. 
What is the disadvantage of just leaving the Help menu long?

*  I don't like the World Wide Web.  If I were an Emacs newbie, I would not
click "Web Tour".  I would click "Tutorial" instead.  So I would miss out on the
tour.  I Is there any way for us to tell Help menu viewers that the tour
describes a much wider variety of useful features for programmers and others,
but the tutorial covers only text editing basics?  Maybe name the menu items
"Tutorial (for non-programmers only)" and "Web Tour (for everyone)"?

Re: Please add a "Guided Tour" menu command

[Stefan Monnier]

> Also, why have both `Tutorial' and `Tutorial (choose language)'? Just
> `Tutorial' is enough, but it should ask for the language (and
> optionally save that choice, just as it saves the tutorial
> position).

I agree, we should remove "Tutorial", and rename "Tutorial (choose
language)" to "Tutorial".  An additional RET to accept the default is
really not a big deal.


        Stefan

Re: Please add a "Guided Tour" menu command

[Stefan Monnier]

> On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 10:25 PM, Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> wrote:
>> Overview
>> Web Tour
>> Tutorial
>> FAQ
>> What's New
>> Known Problems

> Looks good to me.

Looks OK to me as well.  I'm not sure about the "Web Tour", tho.
It makes it sound like we'll give you a tour of the web.  Also I agree
that a menu item that jumps to a browser is rather annoying.  Maybe we
should have the (clickable) URL displayed in a buffer, instead.  E.g. in
the tutorial.


        Stefan

Re: Please add a "Guided Tour" menu command

[Davis Herring]

Jason Spiro wrote:
>> >  Web Tour
>
> *  I don't like the World Wide Web.  If I were an Emacs newbie, I
> would not click "Web Tour".  I would click "Tutorial" instead.  So I
> would miss out on the tour.  I Is there any way for us to tell Help
> menu viewers that the tour describes a much wider variety of useful
> features for programmers and others, but the tutorial covers only text
> editing basics?  Maybe name the menu items "Tutorial (for
> non-programmers only)" and "Web Tour (for everyone)"?

As Stefan said, the name "Web Tour" seems to suggest a tour of and not on
the WWW, and the hyperlink nature of it is also odd.  Perhaps both of
those concerns can be alleviated by renaming it to something like "Feature
Tour (Web)".  Then what it describes is made explicit, and it should no
longer be a surprise that it is a hyperlink.  The presence of the word
"Web" might still put you off, but I suspect that the number of (even
potential) Emacs newbies in 2008 that avoid using the WWW is rather small
(probably smaller than the number of Emacs users who do so).

Davis

-- 
This product is sold by volume, not by mass.  If it appears too dense or
too sparse, it is because mass-energy conversion has occurred during
shipping.

Re: Please add a "Guided Tour" menu command

[Lennart Borgman]

On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 12:10 AM, Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4@gmail.com> wrote:
> *  I don't like the idea of moving the tour into a submenu.  It is one of the
> most important help items for newbies, perhaps more important than the manual.
> I suspect that putting the tour in a submenu will make less users click on it.
> What is the disadvantage of just leaving the Help menu long?

* For beginners:
I think using a submenu called "Overview" makes it easier for them, not harder.

* For experienced users:
The help menu is useful also for experienced users. They will perhaps
open it many times. It is a little benefit for them with a short menu.

RE: Please add a "Guided Tour" menu command

[Drew Adams]

> As Stefan said, the name "Web Tour" seems to suggest a tour 
> of and not on the WWW, and the hyperlink nature of it is also
> odd.  Perhaps both of those concerns can be alleviated by
> renaming it to something like "Feature Tour (Web)".  Then
> what it describes is made explicit, and it should no
> longer be a surprise that it is a hyperlink.

Agreed. Or it could also be just `Tour (Web)'.

If it's a tour (on the Web) of Emacs, then it's clearly a tour of its features.
That's what "taking the tour" is all about: seeing what it can do.

Re: Please add a "Guided Tour" menu command

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@IRO.UMontreal.CA>
> Cc: Juri Linkov <juri@jurta.org>, jasonspiro4@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 18:04:01 -0500
> 
> >> We now have a new nice Doc-View mode that can display PDF files.
> > Only if you have a good portion of TeX Live installed.  (I do have it,
> > btw, even on Windows, but I doubt many non-Unix users will.)
> 
> AFAIK it only requires ghostscript.

That's not what the commentary in doc-view.el says.