From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Christian Schlauer Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Calc: `*' binds more strongly than `/' Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 23:29:55 +0200 Message-ID: <878xcpz7zg.fsf@totally-fudged-out-message-id> References: <87y7kvxj6p.fsf@arcor.de> <867isb2mnv.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Reply-To: cs-usenet@arcor.de NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1176933378 26205 80.91.229.12 (18 Apr 2007 21:56:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 21:56:18 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Apr 18 23:56:10 2007 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HeI8I-0006j2-4P for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 23:56:10 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HeID9-0006Q4-Qs for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 18:01:11 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1HeID6-0006Ph-CL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 18:01:08 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1HeID5-0006PS-Kc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 18:01:07 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HeID5-0006PP-F5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 18:01:07 -0400 Original-Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1HeI8C-00010W-G9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 17:56:04 -0400 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HeI7q-0008T6-JB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 23:55:42 +0200 Original-Received: from finn.gmane.org ([80.91.229.4]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 23:55:42 +0200 Original-Received: from cs-usenet by finn.gmane.org with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2007 23:55:42 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 60 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: finn.gmane.org User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.98 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:nUqSeRa8Ju8bMsuIjVHVODv9fRE= X-detected-kernel: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:69589 Archived-At: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) writes: >>>>>> "Christian" == Christian Schlauer >>>>>> writes: > > Christian> I believe (but I do not know) that Calc's behaviour is > Christian> (too) far from what `ordinary' people (like me ;-) would > Christian> expect: I ran into this feature in my first table and > Christian> wondered what was going on. I thought that Org-mode > Christian> calculates `wrong'. > > You mean from what *programmers* think. Keep in mind that Calc was > designed by a mathematician, and it's much more natural in math to > have * have higher precedence than /. There's no promise that the > order of operations is like programmer-think. I got used to it quite > quickly when I was playing with Calc during its initial development. Hm. I'm an engineer, not a programmer ;-) I can only say that Calc seems to be a fantastic tool, especially when one is on a computer where the `heaviest' math tool installed is some spreadsheet. But I wouldn't recommend it to an engineer as it doesn't work in the way I (and spreadsheet-users) am used to, that is left-to-right evaluation in absence of parentheses. I didn't think that my expectation of the order of operations is like programmers think. I learned in school that when I write on paper 2 * 3 ----- 4 * 5 I have to enter it in my pocket calculator (Casio) as 2*3/(4*5), and it seems that Jay found the same behaviour with other brands. So it starts with the school kids, not with programmers. > I suggest it not be changed. It will break old code (Calc has been > around for almost two decades) That's the risk. I'm surprised: am I the first one to complain about this feature? In 20 years? But then, Calc hasn't been bundled with Emacs until now. > it's a minor thing I don't agree. When I write a formula for a table in Org-mode, I always have to check it carefully as Calc does not work like Gnumeric, Openoffice's spreadsheet, MATLAB, Excel, ... I simply have a bad feeling when typing the formula due to this feature and the fact that it makes using Calc more error-prone for me (and for all those familiar with the spreadsheet programs mentioned before). > and people have eventually stumbled on it, and it's well (over?) > documented. It is well-documented, but it is an unnecessary trap, IMO. Regards, Christian Schlauer