From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Walter Alejandro Iglesias Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs learning curve Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2010 22:54:38 +0200 Message-ID: <878w4mrtdd.fsf@roquesor.com> References: <10954D02-E217-49F3-8824-757DA34074AB@gmail.com> <83zkxzakr0.fsf@gnu.org> <83pqyva8ms.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1280955327 9749 80.91.229.12 (4 Aug 2010 20:55:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 20:55:27 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Aug 04 22:55:25 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ogkzh-0007Ym-V2 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 04 Aug 2010 22:55:22 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53381 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ogkzh-0004Ml-Hy for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 04 Aug 2010 16:55:21 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=46286 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ogkza-0004MW-N0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Aug 2010 16:55:15 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OgkzZ-0001T0-M6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Aug 2010 16:55:14 -0400 Original-Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:44459) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OgkzZ-0001Sh-BK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Aug 2010 16:55:13 -0400 Original-Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OgkzW-0007S4-RA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Aug 2010 22:55:10 +0200 Original-Received: from 106.red-79-151-230.dynamicip.rima-tde.net ([79.151.230.106]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Aug 2010 22:55:10 +0200 Original-Received: from eloi by 106.red-79-151-230.dynamicip.rima-tde.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 04 Aug 2010 22:55:10 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 34 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 106.red-79-151-230.dynamicip.rima-tde.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.2 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:8BoY6rZpseNc3opBAfcFY2ZGlAE= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:128261 Archived-At: Do you think using "ed" is difficult? Try it a Sunday and you'll learn how to use it in minutes. The same happens with the vi editor. Why? Because since the first time it is showed to the new user like a "different" tool. Especially different to what users are accustomed today. Vi, since the first time says to you "I am not notepad!", so spend a few minutes following the tutorial or choose another tool. The same could happen with Emacs but, like most gnu/linux graphical applications (those you find in gnome, kde), Emacs (I mean the graphical interface) tries to be friendly to the new user. That is the mistake. Most gnu/linux distributions install a command line version of vi but the X11 or gtk version of emacs. So the new user open emacs and expects the menu, similar to the menu of the rest of applications, behaves like the menu of rest of applications. This is what common sense expects of a "system": an unified behavior. After a few clicks the newbie close Emacs screwing to the mother of somebody. What windows, mac os and some "graphical desktop gnu/linux" users don't know is that Emacs is coherent with the wonderful gnu base system (core utils and family), a good, moderate, evolution of unix tools. And I am seriously suspecting, reading this mailing list, some advanced emacs users-developers suffer the same ignorance. That's why, I think, Emacs leaning curve is developing in a black hole (using gnus to read mail is an example). But I love you all. So, let me KISS you! ;) PD: elisp function's names are descriptive enough. Why don't include them "literally" in the menu, instead of the friendly descriptions that just confuse. In this way you at least invite the new user to learn.